I had a serious talk with my best friend the other day. We debated where humans stood on the scale of morality. I said that only through society’s influence does humanity have any sense of morality, he sort of agreed. We than began to speak of the characteristics of the majority. He stated that he honestly thought that people should be, and are, good, helpful, kind beings, and I completely disagreed. Through my eyes most of us are selfish beings, only trying to further our own success. Kindness instead of being appreciated is only taken for granted, and therefore foolish. Give a man a nickle and he’ll take your wallet. Though there are of course instances when we are kind, like to friends or family, or members on HighExistence, just kidding. I do think I’m kind, but what good does it do when faced with a callous society.
After moving to California, he began to embrace more of a spiritual ambiance, while I stayed at Jersey, my perspective was geared towards more of a individualistic and realistic approach at life.
We stopped because our ideologies were clashing, and he began to take things personally. In the end he called me a pessimist, which made me laugh.
I just told him that I’m not a pessimist, and that I’m just saying how life is.
So my questions are, are realists pessimists, while idealists optimists, and just because I’m realistic does not mean I’m pessimistic, I’m still entirely positive just a realist, does that make sense?
Oh, and I’m new here nice to meet all of you.
@analsis, Your assumption is true for what appears like the majority. But some people like their reality, so they are realists and optimistic. They’re life has a tendency to favor them more easily than others so they don’t need to be idealistic, and probably sense another’s idealism as unnecessary and stressful therefore as pessimistic. Like anything else, its subjective to your perception. ‘The problem is not the problem, the problem is your attitude about the problem’
@heavydreamz I like it, your explanation is great.Basically its all about perception, as you say. Although wouldn’t that just mean some people truly are better off ignorant, ignoring the reality others, just perceiving life through their own narrow perspectives.
@analsis, Yes a lot of people benefit from the collective ignorance and therefore live to maintain that. Conservative people, for example, are those who benefit from the old routine (or think they do) and want to keep it the same despite how it effects others. The people who rule the world are those who benefit from it. Many other people simply benefit from the random conditions of their lives and aren’t motivated to think about changing it, which is why people who don’t get anything from it think so much about it. If only there was a simple way for people to communicate between these barriers.
I’m a surrealist and find everything beautifully fucked up.
@manimal, pessimists can be quite realistic. It depends on the person. Idealists are often working towards something greater and there may be no quicker way but only in a sense. People are both dumb and smart depending on what your referring to. Just being is the most peaceful way to live and be real because honestly arguing any of it is a trap, agreed. @beyond, sounds like a great way to just be.
@heavydreamz, I just remembered this picture and replied without context.
The problem with optimism and pessimism is that they exclude each other’s realities. A realist can’t survive without humoring those two and idealism seems inevitable.
It’s seems to be a debate about how willing a person is to be conscious of the world around them, and what they choose to be conscious of. The best way to be fully conscious is to just be, accepting of your surroundings, which one can be infinitely be aware of more, infinitely more present. This is the way to find truth. To stop the mental labeling of things which causes you to focus on only one thing. The less mental chatter, the more capacity you have to be be fully conscious. Many are basically asleep considering they have no capacity to stop judging and labeling. Surrealism seems to be a slightly humorous acceptance of what is, therefore an easy portal into consciousness. This can be difficult for a pessimist, he thinks, we’ll what’s funny about mass global suffering? An enlightened person knows that suffering is a necessary component to experience, although its grim, he is grateful. The surrealist finds almost sick humor and enjoyment in this but is also enlightened and open. Learn to love the pain, the burn, and you free the mind.
“Don’t ever become a pessimist… a pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun, and neither can stop the march of events.”
-Robert A. Heinlein.
“Whether you think you can or think you can’t, your right.”
“I know nothing with any certainty, but the sight of the stars makes me dream.”
-vincent van gogh.
Some of my favorite quotes on this matter. I’m not sure whether I think a realist is a pessimist or not, but I don’t like to think in such black and white terms if that makes sense. I would definitely say that it is more common for a realist to be pessimistic, and an idealist to be optimistic in many aspects of life, but certainly not all. I would submit that idealist are dreamers, and therefore it suits their personality more to be optimistic so to keep their dreams closer to their heart (not so far out of reach) while a realist looks at life in the most logical sense, and so are more likely to look at what’s most readily available to them or more in line with their natural talents rather than chasing after something seemingly further from their reach.
I think it’s also a question of whether or not a realist can be a dreamer or idealist can keep their feet grounded. I don’t think it’s that a realist can’t be a dreamer or an idealist can’t be logical. I would say that a realist can be positive in life without being illogical and likewise an idealist be pessimistic while still reaching for the stars, so to speak.
i feel like idealists are bound to be disappointed. i mean they are free, very free at first. but its very easy to become bitter, i mean, when you show your hope and your heart to the world and of course, everyone thinks youre super naive. like..she obviously missed the memo!
What matters is the goal . You can choose to be a realistic and achieve your goal on your realistic way or you can just choose to be a idealist type and achieve on your idealist way.
If I give you someone a flower . A perfumer sees it as something for perfume.A artist sees its beautiful side. They are all all right .
Realists can be pessimistic or optimistic.
Idealism is another ball game.
Idealists are delusional and naive. Optimists are realists who simply see and embrace what’s best in the world around them. Pessimists are realists who see and dwell on what’s worse.
That being said, reality is different for everyone. So you can’t really decide who is and isn’t what. You can only figure out your worldview.
I have to really be conscious of my thoughts, otherwise pessimism takes me over. Sometimes optimism/positive thinking just looks like bullshit to me, when I get in a rut of hopelessness it’s really hard for me to believe things can ever improve.
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t enjoy pessimism. But the way things have been for me lately, it’s hard not to be pessimistic.
@theskafish, I know what you mean, being aware of the state your in. When I find myself feeling pessimistic, I see only the negative connections but at this point its obvious how I could wake up the next day feeling the opposite and seeing the opposite as well. When I wake up in a good mood, feeling new, its like I forgot what that was like or unable to remember when in the lower state. I am then remembering all the other times I felt that way too. Different states of consciousness, or levels you might think of it.
Smoking DMT for me showed me how we shift through these daily in such a slowed down manner that its almost invisible. While on DMT it was like I shifted through all these states incredibly rapidly, revealing to me my many different points of view, and I remembered different experiences of my life connected to each one. It was so strange to briefly be in a state that I remembered a random conversation with a person long forgotten, but overwhelmed by nostalgia of that time period of my life. Powerful experience.
For me Its really hard to shift from a pessimistic state to an optimistic state, while it feels quite easy for me to shift from an optimistic state to a pessimistic one. When Im feeling good, care free, present, worried thoughts creep in, ‘remember how the world is fucked, gotta do something about that, oh yeah and remember all those times you were a piece of shit, you should feel like a piece of shit now too, … ‘ and so on the downward spiral. This is the pattern for me, Im always trying to figure out how to stay present but the ego is manipulative.
@kidd, I disagree with that. I don’t think people have a solid worldview, unless they’re functioning on memory only with complete lack of imagination. Everyone is those things at different times in different time periods. And I see no relation between idealism and delusion in their base meaning. But if idealism makes people deluded, this definition is also a fit for the mass amongst HEthens – ‘a theory that the essential nature of reality lies in consciousness or reason’. Therefore everyone is more or less susceptible to naiveties and lured by simplicity, so everyone is an idealist, most of the time impractical.
I understand that this is not what this thread is about, but I see a lot of danger in pessimism. If we always live in a pessimistic state of mind and only look at the negatives around us, it can have a snowballing effect with real consequences. This negative thinking can lead to depression and anxiety issues later in life. I would suggest being a realist optimist. It sounds crazy because of the insane amount of media of bad things that we see everyday, but in reality there are way more good people on this Earth than bad and people tend to forget that. So always try to keep your head up and be optimistic and you should live a much fuller and happier life.
@theskafish, It isn’t harder than you make it. Trust me, been there, done that.
And yknow, when you’re in a rut of awesomeness, negative thinking seems like utter bullshit. Even more so than positivity when you’re down. And the better it gets, the better it gets.
If you spent as much time working on it as you do thinking of it and talking about it, these problems wouldn’t exist to you.
@heavydreamz, Well, quite realistic isn’t really realistic, is it? Either you’r realistic or you’re not. If there’s just a bit of realism in it, it’s still unrealistic and delusive. Pessimism is lame and pointless.
Idealism is just a crutch, an unneeded crutch that causes atrophy and stagnation.
And yknow, Hitler was a huge idealist. So was Stalin, Mao, Pot, Milosovic, and all those other shitheads who only spew hatred and destruction on the world.
@manimal, “It isn’t harder than you make it….If you spent as much time working on it as you do thinking of it and talking about it, these problems wouldn’t exist to you.”
I find that I get moments of clarity like that after periods of success or failure. When, either at a peak or a trough, I can see clearly and deep down I know it, that if something is hard it’s because I’ve done it to myself, and that had I put time into the thing I wanted/needed to accomplish instead of complaining or being pessimistic, it would not only be done but it would be done easier as well.
I’m getting better at the mindstuff but sometimes I guess I still need a reality check.