Why when you find a one little piece of paradise, far from they influences of financial gain, eventually some salesman will come knocking apon your thatched door?
afai’m concerned (and perhaps in spite of financial gain being a creative endeavour) there will always be leeches ready to assume another’s good fortune or opportunity, by trade or any another method. I feel our population has grown (or arable land has declined) to the point where we are like weeds vying for sunlight under a dense canopy, any spare ‘piece of paradise’ will be seized upon almost instantly.
I hope that doesn’t sound too cynical!
Capitalism worked very well for us all for the last 200 or some years ago..but I think people are starting to see that it may need some tweaking to work in the future. Financial Profit is the underlying goal of any capitalist venture…but in order for it to completely work as it does in the united states… Unbridled capitalism…some people need to be debt or poor.
The thing was, earlier someone was using this site to sell products to…us potential customers. This site I consider a little piece of paradise where we don’t have people peddling their wares to us, we can just freely rant about our extremist/conservative, intellectual/emotional, scientific/metaphysical, mumbojumbo/logic at will. I know there are advertizements on this site but whoever was using discussions like spam bombs.
Ayn Rand believed the problem with Capitalism is that is never had a moral or philosophical foundation. But given that kind of foundation, it would have been ideal. Every individual would have to live up to their own highest potential in order to make a living.
Check it out, she’s awesome.
@michelle, Atlas shrugged reaffirmed a lot a ideas i had too but imho her 50’s/60’s outlook isn’t as broad minded as it could be 50 years later in our modern 21st century world. Not everyone actually gets their opportunities, no matter what they could/would/should be capable of.
@ tits, as for capitalism being better than communism, how do you feel about the current state of decline of the world’s foremost capitalist nations??
I’m certainly no commi, but as for the latest round of ‘capitalism’ I see it as a big fat joke being played on the world’s everyday citizens – the everyday people who do all the hard work to actually keep our world turning.
If it’s more moral and ethical issues we seek to discuss here then just have a look at whose leading us. Look at how the next US presidential election is already being played out! Sh!t has been flung at, and has deservedly stuck fast to, every single candidate regardless of political persuasion.
Of course there is no good or bad, it’s just the ‘what you can get away with’ mentality that stinks.
“It ain’t what you do it’s the way that you do it”
Communism is little more than a modern type of dictatorship under the guise of socialism. I agree with the General. If you look into Adam Smiths original plan for capitalism you will see he suggested many things that were never adopted which would probably have made it flawless, not in the least solutions to the national debt problems, recessions and depression, but political oportunism and economic greed over-rode those measures. If you want to improve capitalism, perhaps we should begin with the original designers blue print model.
I think we first need to define the perceived problems with capitalism first and apply some critical thinking to understand what those problems are rather than arguing from a bunch of unwritten assumptions.
Michelle: Rand was a poor philosopher but a good writer, I’ll read her books but cringe often and then end up putting them back on the shelf. She loved personal attacks more than a serious position I’m afraid.
Well a clear problem with capitalism is national debt, recessions and depressions. Another problem is what we percieve as a justifiable pay check, because someone can get something does that mean they should? In the same line of arguement a starving child does not deserve bread because he does not have it.
1. Recessions and depressions, ie. Business cycle. Is this a capitalist problem? Free market economists don’t think so (or at least not in the same way).
Bear in mind a recession can also be viewed as a positively good thing. Do you not feel asset bubbles should be corrected?
2. Because someone can does that mean they should? Are they using force? If not should we use force to stop them? Where do you morals come from and how do you view force?
3. Of course someone whould get bread if starving, what caused them to be starving? Lets take Ethiopia as a case in point.
If you are talking about morality I like this Edmund Burke quote- “Society cannot exist unless a controlling power upon will and appetite be placed somewhere, and the less of it there is within, the more there must be without.”
The meaning may be obvious but we have a conscience that tells us what is right and wrong. Some are not in touch with that conscience or have a distorted conscience, this is why we create laws. Laws are not for people who know right from wrong but for those who do not.
As for the rest, I am not an economist, I just thought problems in the capitalist world are signs of problems with capitalism, apparently I’m wrong. Just that the recent financial crisis appears to be the result of financial opportunism in an under regulated sector of capitalist society.
Burke is rather antithetical towards himself in his understanding of morality rendering it subjective and historical in nature rendering most of his statements and thoughts regarding necessities as contextual to the time and location of his comments, phenomonal in nature (way to drunk for this heavy a conversation btw…)
Consider this quote:
“I cannot stand forward and give praise or blame to anything which relates to human actions, and human concerns, on a simple view of the object, as it stands stripped of every relation, in all the nakedness and solitude of metaphysical abstraction. Circumstances (which with some gentlemen pass for nothing) give in reality to every political principle its distinguishing color and discriminating effect. The circumstances are what render every civil and political scheme beneficial or noxious to mankind”
Morality and Burke are nonesense really it is pure relativism and that is OK but Burke on Liberty resorts to reductio ad absurdum:
““Is it because liberty in the abstract may be classed amongst the blessings
of mankind, that I am seriously to felicitate a madman, who has escaped from the protecting restraint and wholesome darkness of his
cell, on his restoration to the enjoyment of light and liberty? Am I
to congratulate a highwayman and murderer who has broke prison
upon the recovery of his natural rights?”
No Libertarian advocates moral nihilism that I have read, Burke uses his relativism, points to nihilism by seeming random induction pinning it to liberty like a drunken buffoon hits a pinyata.
But the main point is that he views humanity as innately needing restrained and that doesn’t fit with any evolutionary biology I follow where we are innately good unless sick or conditioned otherwise, we are gregarious (within tribal limits) genetically and history (prehistory) shows that violence is naturally unnatural within defined limits.
I do not say we do not need protection this is all rather abstract from anything I asked which was all regarding capitalism.
Capitalist world? I see state controlled central banking, fiat money, lenders of last resort and false stimulus and guarantees, I don’t see no capitalism son, why I’m all hat and no cattle because all I got right here is good old fashioned mixed economy and mercantilism!
(in other words capitalism is just a random word which I guess means trade but there is really zero free market in existence anywhere, not even a little)
I don’t know what capitalism means to you or anyone else but to me it is the focusing of society on economic and finacial motivation, money is the bottom line. No morality involved, the accumulation of capital is the ends that justifies the means. Free trade sounds glorious, and perhaps it is but I see it as a word made popular by the word ‘free’ alone.
The world is in a state of mass producing wants, most things unnecessary, and a case of many of the things that are necessary have little or no financial gain so are burdensome on a society. We are not motivated by any morality, obligation or need, we are motivated by gain. That is what capitalism means to me and I may be wrong, maybe as I described is not the reality, maybe capitalism as I descibed does not exist.
Well with all due respect I think you could do with investigating it a little more and if you will take this in the friendly manner it is meant I would like to recommend a video podcast to you, they appear in both very long and very short amounts depending on your attention span at any given time and I certainly don’t agree with all opinions but worth a look. I’ve taken the time to pick out one I thought appropriate but short in case you think I’m full of it I don’t want to waste your time lol :D
Mind you this one is quite hyperbolic, maybe try some truenews stuff that is a bit lighter analysis on current events as I said I’m pretty wasted.
Furthermore research Ron Paul, perhaps the only honest politician who has always stuck to his guns no matter what and look at what he advocates.
Your probably right, I should investigate it before I knock it but I don’t really have an interest in capitalism or free-trade, people have their jobs in life and they should know that stuff but my job does not require the understanding of economics. Sure it all applies to me at some point but I question peoples motives, or at least ask them to question their own motives. If someone can live with ignoring the suffering of others so they can live in material comfort, frankly I am envious of them.
Having said that, I know there are a lot of corporations and wealthy people doing many great things to improve the world, but I am forced to question their motives also. Do they do such to seem sympathetic to the consumer, that the consumer is more likely to do business with one who cares?
Do people do good things to make themselves feel better about the excess they have? I suppose it doesn’t really matter if they are doing good, but I think it is hazardous to the conscience if the motivation is not correct. Just be sure the good is done for the sake of conscience not for the sake of ego.
See you say you are not interested but then pose a bunch of questions that are all intricately related.
I mean if you have a passing interest and really don’t want to go into the big questions and really spend some time on it all you are going to get is vacuous answers that probably don’t even begin to address the issues.
Thats cool man but I can’t really say anymore because any answers I’m likely to give you which I am actually happy to do will stretch to 10+ paragraphs and recommendations of literature (and I do it impartially from both left and right anarchist and statist).
I just mean I am not interested in society and what makes it function, or how it functions best and in the healthiest way. I am interested in people on a personal level. I want to make sure people can live with themselves, if they can murder, rape and steal yet live with themselves, then they are not what I am interested in. I am interested in people who face dilemas every day that may cause them to not be able to live with themselves. If a person has a sensitive conscience, I want to make sure it is sensitive in a healthy way. (basically)
Thanks for the tip. Do you mean I have to know economic, political science and capitalism to be able to properly understand abnormal and comparitive psychology? I think psychology of ego, wants and desires requires such, but what about emotional psychology?
Originally, I just started the thread as a bit of a joke because of a spam attack the other night. I really do not have much of an interest in capitalism, so sorry for being an ass. I kind of just went with it as it took on a life and got carried away, throwing my opinions around like an idiot.
I will rename it so someone can start a real discussion on capitalism without the confusion.