Just because you can label the ‘unconscious masses’ insane, why does that make you above and outside this insanity? If you explained the state of human existence to anyone, and gave them all the reasons why our society is sick, they’d probably agree with you. But that literally changes nothing about who they are. Concepts are concepts, beliefs are beliefs, and whatever you believe makes you no higher or better than anyone else. Mental claiming implies judgement, that you are ‘above’ the unconscious masses, when in reality it is this attitude that is actually what you were judging in the first place. You just fail to see the same mechanism you are judging acting within yourself. If you view yourself as living a ‘high existence,’ and look at the way everyone else lives as wrong, you are actually just living in the same existence as everyone else. The only difference is you claim yours is higher and better. Is this whole post extremely hypocritical? It probably is. That’s why we should all learn to just shut the fuck up.
“If you start to think of your physical and moral condition, you usually find that you are sick.”
-Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
@optimystic, I can’t tell if you are agreeing or disagreeing. It seems to me that everyone is constantly thinking about their physical and moral condition. As in, “I’m not good enough” or “he’s not good enough and doesn’t meet my expectations of what an ideal person is.” “I need to be better, workout everyday, think the right thoughts, never show or feel any negative emotions”.. etc. If this was a good thing then wouldn’t we live in a perfect society by now? It doesn’t seem to produce any change, only an attitude of holding ourselves and others to some standard.
@mikeyw829, I wasn’t really agreeing or disagreeing with your post, just offering some additional analysis from a man I revere.
No one is better, or worse, than anyone else. Some people are able to utilize their surroundings, some are not. This fact separates a great deal of people.
@mikeyw829, Lets stop living in ideas about reality (“the masses are insane and I’m above that which makes me a better person), and start living in reality.
In reality there are no such thing as insane and sane people, or even a thing called an “unconscious mass” of people. If there were such as thing as insanity, it would be thinking that you are sane
@rickvonstar, yes. Well kind of. There is collective insanity, no? Otherwise we’d live in a perfect world. But a true recognition of this isn’t a disembodied mental claim. That just insinuates you (hypothetical you) think you’re special. It’s realizing unconscious mechanisms within yourself. True recognition and realization is within yourself, not in judgement of others. Anyone can do that, and almost everyone does. This goes for anything like what I am talking about, such as calling people out for posting because of their ‘egos’ or something like that, or how people are so sick of the way society is and don’t want to live in it anymore. This is a tricky subject though because I feel like I’m being very hypocritical. But how else can one talk of these things?
Basically what I’m saying is that ultimately anything you claim about yourself or others ultimately isn’t the truth. The truth doesn’t lie within thoughts. Obviously thinking and conceptualizing are the only ways we can communicate with one another, but there is something beyond that, and that’s ultimately where the ‘truth’ lies. So thinking you know the right way to live or that someone’s argument is ‘fallacious’ or everyone is unconscious and you aren’t… ultimately those are just thoughts, and what you think isn’t necessarily true. Especially if there is some kind of emotional feeling (anger, annoyance, condescension) behind your thoughts. I think that gets into the whole duality/nonduality debate.
@mercurial, “Your assertion requires reasoning. I neither agree or disagree until you have done so”
The concepts, of sanity/insanity and that of a group are fictions of the mind.
How could there actually be something called a group, that actually exists? A group is a construct of the mind that makes it easier to speak of a certain number of individuals. You can’t put your hands out and touch a group. It just doesn’t exist. A group is only a convention of language.
If someone exhibits non standard behavior to the point where said behavior becomes dangerous and uncomfortable/strange to yourself and others then we call it insane. But at what point do you decide to divide the continuum of behavior into parts called insane and sane? The act of dividing the continuum of behavior depends on someone actively making the division of something that doesn’t inherently have a division. Therefore, such a division is a construct of the mind, and doesn’t exist as a thing in itself.
” If you were on a boat, lost out at sea with a “schizophrenic” who didn’t have their meds, and this person was threatening the survival of the group, that truth would fall apart. Do you disagree?”
I doubt a schizophrenic without his meds thinks he is insane? I am not understanding the phrasing of your question perhaps.
“You’re also doing the very thing your criticizing by saying “in reality””
By saying “in reality” I am living in an idea about reality? and hence being contradictory? such is the nature of language such that we can’t talk about reality without it being an idea about reality. I didn’t mean to criticize, i only said we should stop living in ideas about reality because certain ideas tend more towards fiction than others. This is all very laughable that we can’t talk about reality without being contradictory to some extent.
@mikeyw829, No I don’t think there is such thing as collective insanity because I don’t think there is any such thing as a group or insanity for that matter.
@mikeyw829, Indeed, I think that when we stop thoughts and just see reality as it is without believing in most judgments that our minds habitually create, a lot of these ghosts like conscious/unconscious, sanity/insanity, seem to disappear
We judge ourselves superior to those who judge themselves superior, like fighting for peace is it not?
Understanding is a blessing and a curse, the problems of humanity are not a burden on the “unconscious masses” so why does that make them inferior? Yes, you are lucky to have understanding but they, in their way, are lucky not to. As easily as a man can be frustrated by their short coming, he can be envious.
Why hate someone for lacking what you have? Sounds like reverse jealousy.
@mikeyw829, “Basically what I’m saying is that ultimately anything you claim about yourself or others ultimately isn’t the truth.”
I agree completely! We can only identify parts of the whole, but personally–I don’t know about anyone else–I can’t understand the whole of a person. I’ll never claim otherwise. I’ll never believe I’m less than or greater than anyone.
“Mental claiming implies judgement, that you are ‘above’ the unconscious masses, when in reality it is this attitude that is actually what you were judging in the first place.”
I’ve literally thought this exact thought before (though unconscious masses was replaced with people in general). And I applaud you for being the one to say it because I, too, have been worried about sounding hypocritical. But, really, you’re just speaking the truth that needed to be said. That takes courage, at least in my opinion.
“That’s why we should all learn to just shut the fuck up.”
Granted, I think we should only STFU when it’s about people behind their backs. The best way to reach an understanding with others is to talk them, but I’m sure you know that. :D
Seriously. Great post. It needed to be said. The discussion is coming along nicely, too.
Obviously I’m not saying I’m a superior space-time transcending super human being. That’s not for me to say, that’s for other people to say.
Hah, those are some really good points you made there @mikeyw829,
But even in sharing that insight, you’re committing hypocrisy. Which is what you were telling people not to do in the first place.
And when you say people should shut the fuck up, you’re contradicting yourself. Plus, seeing how you’re saying it at a place made for discussion, it’s even weirder. Makes no sense, bre.
But I have a question for you, o bringer of light…
HOW do you KNOW we’re all living in the same existence. Where is the proof, how’s the path of logic leading you to this conclusion, Why do you know it?
And if it’s something you want to see, you may easily see it even if it isn’t there.
No, I’m not opposing you or claiming that you’re wrong, nor am I claiming that I am right.
I am simply reminding you that you might have overlooked something important.
@manimal, “HOW do you KNOW we’re all living in the same existence. Where is the proof, how’s the path of logic leading you to this conclusion, Why do you know it?”
There is no known proof that we’re living in the same existence, nor is there known proof that we’re not… Isn’t that reason enough to be more humble (which I believe his point was)?
Because, what if there is and we’re lower on the totem pole than we’d like? If humans are not equal, who’s to say we’re not the lesser beings? If there isn’t, we’re really all the same and we really don’t have the right to judge, anyway…
Maybe. Hell if I know, really. Good questions, though. Got me thinking.
@kidd, “Maybe. Hell if I know, really. Good questions, though. Got me thinking.”
That’s the point :)
My views on your questions?
Reason to be humble? Reason is all up to you, there is no “should.”
Who’s to say we’re not lesser beings? We. You decide whether you’re a lesser, greater, or equal being. Though, is it really more than opinion?
We don’t have the right to judge? We have no rights, and we have the right to do whatever we want. If you do something, you have the right to do so. Rights are assumed.
@manimal, I pointed out that there is no way to talk about something like this without being hypocritical to at least some extent. But I am the bringer of light so I can say what I want.
“Where’s the proof, how’s the path of logic leading you to this conclusion?”
-that’s the point I was trying to make. If everything were just based on logic and a conceptualized frame of mind, then I’d completely be missing the point. There is no logical proof that you could just explain someone into understanding (the disembodied, intellectual knowledge I was talking about). But in order to communicate something like this, you need to use words and logic.
As for the shut the fuck up part, I didn’t mean it about discussing. I meant it about the blatant hypocrisy on this site and people always getting caught up in trying to prove their ultimate authority on a subject instead of realizing that thinking without being doesn’t really matter. @kidd, said it all about that point.
@trek79, I wasn’t saying I am not part of the unconscious masses. I actually dislike that term. I was using it because it seems like a lot of people look down on the ‘unconscious masses’ as if they are superior or better, but really they’re just the same with a different belief. For all I know I am part of the ‘unconscious masses’. It’s like if you were brought up thinking you’re a unicorn, and everyone around you thinks they’re a unicorn as well, you could mentally claim to yourself you aren’t a unicorn to make yourself feel special and different. But deep down you still believe you’re a unicorn. But ultimately you aren’t. But just having an intellectual understanding of this makes very little difference. I’m sure I have tons of delusions lurking in my subconscious like this. I have uncovered some of them though, I know that. It’s ultimately up to each of us to discern.
Again you’re pointing out the blatant hypocrisy, but doing so in a post that is an act of blatant hypocrisy. And you say others think in authoritative ways (something you couldn’t know because you can’t see their minds, only text on a screen. You don’t know ANYTHING about what anyone else is thinking) but you do so in authoritative way, more hypocrisy and more contradictions.
I didn’t say it had to be logical or conceptualized.
Just tell me what proof you have seen that convinced you into believing in this stuff.
As for the logic part, you gotta have some sort of logical path backing your belief up, all beliefs go along with one of these.
It looks like you’re avoiding the questions. Either that, or you did not understand them.
How is the part about “thinking without being doesn’t matter” anything more than an opinion? Again, you’re the one blaming others for “authoritative” statements, yet you do it yourself over and over again. You don’t follow the advice that you tell others to follow, and that means you do not really know it. Because, like many great teachers have said, “not doing = not knowing.” All this “great truth” you bring, is really no more than beliefs and opinions. There’s nothing wrong with that, but it seems you do not recognize it as such.
This is just like all that shit you pulled back in the day when you had your grudge on me (which I’m assuming you’ve dropped by now.) Projections, parataxic distortions, and loads and loads of contradictions.
I am very insane.
Claiming others are insane is not the same as claiming others as without knowledge, stupid, or ignorant.
I See now problem with claiming others as ignorant in comparison to me, as I have opinions on what ideas are more intellectually, morally, and ethically important than others.
When someone does not have knowledge of these ideas, I call them fools or ignorant, as they can easily obtain the knowledge, just as I have, but they choose apathy or ignorance.
To call others insane is useless as there is no definition and I have no opinion on the matter. You either have ideas grounded by logic and reasoning, or you follow emotions and feeling without reason. Some claim the latter is insanity, some claim it spirituality.
To a person who admires their shoes more than the earth they tread on, I will call ignorant and insane, for logically those shoes do less for them than the earth does, and they have chosen to ignore or be apathetic towards that reasoning.
To say I am BETTER than anyone else is incredibly misguided. To say I am more knowledgeable is not so.
@manimal, Not getting into this with you. I don’t need to be lectured and talked down to, as you seem to love to do on this site. It’s funny, because what you just said about me is exactly what I think about all the shit you spew all over this site. I said I can’t say this in a post without be hypocritical, so obviously you’re missing something about what I am saying. There is no way of communicating something that can’t be spoken of on a CHAT FORUM, other than speaking of it. So playing the ‘you’re being hypocritical’ card, is just immature in your effort to prove to me the rightness of your claims. I have no grudge with you, I can just see you’re the same person you were before, except now you can justify talking down to people because now you’re a ‘teacher’ of the truth. If you knew anything of ‘the truth’ you’d know that talking about shit like this makes no difference whatsoever in helping people to understand this stuff. Because there is no truth on the level of thought. You can think whatever you want. But oh wait, I’m being hypocritical in saying that because that is a thought in itself. You aren’t as above everyone as you think, manimal. I get the point you are trying to make, it isn’t so revolutionary as to be ‘beyond my comprehension.’ That’s your problem, you assume that about everyone, just like you assumed I didn’t realize I was being hypocritical about my post. Hence why I say, we need to learn to SHUT THE FUCK UP.
I was trying to have a productive discussion about something that is very hard to talk about, as I said from the outset that you can’t talk about this without being at least a little hypocritical. and I knew someone like you would ruin it in the endless need to be right and prove the ‘fallacy’ in other’s comments.
@mikeyw829, AGAIN WITH THIS SHIT!?
Lecturing, talking down to? Get over yourself, what I’m doing is called questioning. If you weren’t so dominated by a defensive ego you wouldn’t get mad about it. You would just ponder the damn questions.
I know you said you’re being a hypocrite, I even acknowledged it in the first post I made. (Go have a look, it’s right there, YOU are the one overlooking things.)
You just assume it can’t be spoken of, just because you can’t put it into words doesn’t mean it can’t be put into words. There’s a huge difference.
I am not, and never have been, trying to “prove the rightness of my claims.” You’re missing the point here BIG TIME. Like I’ve explained to you TIME AND motherfucking TIME AGAIN: It’s not about me, it’s about you. It’s not about me being right, it’s about your arguments being wrong. I have no interest in being right.
But you, pal, YOU need to question more. Just like the others.
Of course I’m not the same person I was before, that’s an impossibility due to the laws of physics and biology. If you’re talking about my behaviour, well yeah of course it’s pretty much the same. Why change a winning concept? Hmm?
I’ve never been talking down to anyone on this site. If that’s the way you interpret it, that’s a misinterpretation. Again, because you can’t deal with my questioning. And you know what that means? There’s really only one answer to the question why people get offended when people question: CLOSEMINDEDNESS, low consciousness, egomania, call it whatever you want because it makes no difference.
And if you consider that shit “talking down,” just look at your post that I’m responding to now… Hypocrisy deluxe, right there for ya.
I’ve never claimed to be above anyone else. In fact I think you’d have a very hard time finding anyone pushing the fact that we’re all created equal (and that equality can never be boken) as much as I am. Once again, your projections get the best of you.
I always assume that people understand (unlike you I always assume a positive outcome) but when people obviously don’t of course I drop that assumption and deal with what’s right there; people who don’t understand.
You weren’t trying to have a productive discussion, you just wanted to shine with your “insight.” Or else you wouldn’t get pissed off no matter what anyone else said, because releasing a hatestorm is not productive discussion. Neither is not seeing others’ points.
Proving you wrong has nothing to do with trying to be right. In fact, it’s all about the exact opposite. And look at you, are you not trying to be right, right now?
You’re forgetting something very important. The only way to learn thing in this world is to REALIZE THAT YOU’RE WRONG.
YOU DON’T KNOW ANYTHING. Never forget that.
(It seems you didn’t appreciate my favour, but there are plenty of others who do, and those are the ones I’m here for. You’re really sounding more and more like a close minded HATER. Check yourself before you wreck yourself.)