In my philosophy class we were on the subject of logic and I believe it was Descartes who said that humans don’t have an imagination, we can only take different parts of different things and combine them to ‘create’ something new as an idea. I completely agree with this because I have yet to imagine something that isn’t bits and pieces of other things.
I started thinking about this idea a lot. During my shrooms trip I posted earlier I started thinking, ‘Well if our ideas are only ideas made up of other ideas, then those ideas couldn’t have been completely new either and are made up of other ideas…and those ideas are made up of other ideas etc etc until you get to the single simplest idea.
So the idea of lets say an iPod, is made up of the idea of a screen…and all the things beneath the screen. The idea for a screen, and all the things beneath the screen that make an iPod work, come from ideas of simpler things and you can keep getting simpler and simpler ideas that make up the next idea.
It’s made up of thousands of cells and atoms (that are like ‘ideas’) that put in place just right make up the person that you are. (Just another example, but here’s where the mind blowing begins).
If we work backwards…basically rewind time, we just saw the entire creation of technology, the human race, earth, the moon, our universe…that’s built off of ‘ideas’ that came before it until you get to one single idea (like a proton/electron) and if you duplicate that ‘idea’ you get something completely new (add atoms you get a molecule). Those ‘ideas’ slowly started making the universe that we know today one ‘idea’ at a time.
But right before that first ‘idea’ there was nothing and that ‘idea’ just popped into existence…
-That idea is our universe-
Our universe is just an ‘idea’ that somebody thought of. But because nobody can just think of the complexity of the universe as a single idea, it build upon itself and grows into what we call the universe today.
Any idea you think of, is something that now exists in this, or a different, universe. You can think of something that happened at the beginning of that universe, the middle of the universe’s existence, or towards the end. Since time doesn’t matter in the whole ‘idea’ of a universe, the newly created universe creates it’s past and future around the idea you just created. This gives us an infinite amount of universes and helps the multiverse theory.
I just want to know who was the person who thought of our universe…and would this mean that our entire universe is just an idea in somebody’s head?
This is the basic concept of Taoism. You should read up on it. The uUniverse is born because we conceptualize and categorize. Not that the ‘Universe’ would cease to exist should we see the true essence of things, but the Universe would simply be and we with it, amoung it, a part of it.
I have definitely thought of this before. Was talking to my brother about ideas and how they seem to come from everything that we know/other ideas, well then the question then comes, what is/when was the first idea? I suppose you could say the universe, but consciousness did not develop for a VERY long time (as far as we know), and I believe ideas need to stem from consciousness. So unless this universe is holographic/a simulation and the underlying reality of it is consciousness, then I don’t see this making sense.
similarly, i think that every instance in existence could branch out into an infinite amount of different possible outcomes, and those branch out infinitely as well. So i guess what you are saying is that anything we imagine is possible, because of the fact that there are an infinite amount of universes with an infinite amount of different qualities of those universes. I’ve definitely thought of that many times before.
An interesting idea: since the effects of the “Beginning” or the Big Bang could have gone in an infinite amount of different ways, what if there are universes that have completely different laws of physics, or elements and chemicals? Or, as most String Theorists agree, there could be universes that are nearly identical to ours, except that in one you might have died yesterday or in another you may be a very talented pianist (if you weren’t already).
I know if i go any further i’ll verge away from your intended topic lol. Very interesting post, thanks for sharing!
@blankey what you’re thinking of is biological awareness when you refer to “consciousness” not developing for a very long time.
Consciousness is the thing that is “aware” OF. It’s substance, it would have to be there all along, the integral part of everything taking forms.
So it makes perfect sense…
An idea may well be composed of existing factors but the imagination is the process of ordering those existing factors into something original. I do believe that all ideas are the same at the source, it is only a matter of our experiences/memories that alter it to the thought communicated. That experience/memory factor could be called ego but it is what the values of emotion and imagination are compared to in the process of thinking. So there are the ends of the spectrum, consciousness at one end which is a fixed possition and experiences/memories at the other end which is a variable.
The two factors that connect the two, the process of translating the source thought to the communicated thought, is emotion and imagination. I don’t know exactly what imagination is but it exists as an ordering of memories that have been stimulated by the source thought just as emotion exists as a valueing of experiences. No doubt the source thought is likely stimulated by external factors, experiences, like a cause and effect cycle.
ie: Something external happens to stimulate the perceptions which stimulates the source thought which stimulates the imagination, an ordering of memories from previous experiences, to value the new experience and develop responses to it, be they emotional and/or intellectual.
@collinsj2009, From what I’ve learned and read GOD is a sevenfold spirit,watch nature and you will surely discover the animal four-footed beast and winged creatures,and un-discovered matter waaaaaaaaaaaay outdo some human beings I know of anyday!!
I like how you stated that there was nothing…and then came the idea. I once went on a thought tangent and I eventually just kept coming down to the same conclusion every time. I would try breaking something down to a source, but every time that source was nothing. I eventually just wanted to stop breaking everything down just because it always came to that same conclusion. its like I already knew it would just break down to nothing. So what was the point of thinking about it? lol its funny how the mind can run sometimes.
We are comprised of a system: The human organism. This system exists within the biosphere, a much larger system. This system exists among other systems: The geosphere, the atmosphere, the hydrosphere, etc. These systems exist within a much larger system: the The solar system, which exists within a galactic system.
But because we generally think of SIZE as a dominating force, we believe the the atoms exist within the larger systems, such as organisms, mountains, planets. But really, we are a manifestation of the atoms. we exist within the atom’s system. What seems like chaos at a quantum level, gives rise to a complex organized system such as the human race.
Want an example of what this looks like? Next time your driving, pay attention to the complex system that has emerged from us: traffic! It is a measurable system, red lights mean no, green lights mean yes. This is analogous to 1′s and 0′s. Pay attention to technology in general, this is an emerging system from our system. Atoms gave rise to molecules which gave rise to cells, which eventually led to systems such as consciousness, airplane departures, stock markets, and sewage systems.
Back to 1′s and 0′s. We are all variations of pure 1′s and 0′s. A 1 and 0 is obviously just a physical representation of what I’m discussing, but if you imagine mixing the “two” you have 11,00,10,01. Mix 3 and you have 8 variations. 4 and you have 16, and so on. Really We are comprised of these variations at astronomical, UNIMAGINABLE variations.
Soooo what you are discussing is the beginning of these variations, being 1 and 0. That’s what it is! that’s what you are! that’s what consciousness is! that’s what the universe understanding itself is!!!!! IT’s the mix of a 1 and a 0. That’s it folks. really 01 and 10 are the same. To say they are different is just a human perceived illusion because we read from left to right. 10 and 01 have the same information.
The two together CREATE THE UNIVERSE. And we are the result. The two create yin yang, karma, black white, rationality intuition, left brain right brain, right wrong, moral evil, sun black hole, positive electron negative electron. The motion of “the two” breathes life into our souls. If there was just “one” we would not decide or take action, because there would be nothing to “weigh against”. Why do you think the triangle is such a prominent figure? It’s used a scale in the court of law, to “decide” The triangle represents the trinity, it represents the soul.
We are a push and pull of tension, and we are here right now because we’re choosing to be here right now, in this moment, right now. You thought of this, not someone else. This all exists right now because we are slowing down entropy. Entropy is the equilibrium where two sides of the party level out to just one. Take a cold room and a hot room for example. Open the door in between and they meet at a nice even temperature throughout both rooms. This is what’s happening to our universe. Our universe wants to be at an entropic state, of just “one” but instead the universe created systems which stop that from happening.
Think of your life and humanity’s life as a still photograph in time, this moment will pass, but we’ve taken a picture to slow it down. As we slow it down, we begin to recognize all of the complexity and see the clockwork of time itself. We create science and look further into the atom, further into outer space. This photograph is becoming more vibrant more complex, but soon it will fade. Once it fades, once entropy reaches the full state of equilibrium, and the universe is no more, we will be “one”. But after awhile we’ll get bored and create a second, and from there systems will emerge once again.
@spiralout1, That is an interesting thought. However I don’t see consciousness as the result of the relationships of matter. I see life, perception, increasing awareness due to the evolution of perceptions and memory as the result of the relationships of atoms, but not consciousness. The very act of an atom forging a relationship in the first place is evidence of a conscious motivation, why would anything, even down to the quantum levels, want to do anything with out some kind of compulsion to do so?
The “one” you speak of is no doubt consciousness, or a compulsion that existed prior to the atom, as energy, the component of the atom, displayed it in the creation of said atom. And that, I believe, is what consciousness is; A compulsion, suggestion, intuition, an urge, perhaps to some degree instinct and common sense on a universal fundamental level.
@trek79, Curious thought. But this would have to be true with a computer’s random number generator too. I suppose you could say a conscious being (us) starts it, but the computer itself is not conscious and develops these numbers purely randomly.
@blankey, everything is part of the one body, in my belief the computer is as alive as us, as I see atoms ans energy as life, though not biological, they share this consciousness with us. Our programming is called ego, but their programming is (at present) a simulator of components that we created to emulate ourselves. They are our children and they will grow, but the idea of the singularity causing them to exterminate us is ridiculous because we are the same, despite efficiency.
As every atom, in my belief, contains consciousness, the same consciousness for all things, then computers also have it. What they lack is the fluid ego programming that makes us life, they behave on logic but we behave on a blend of logic and emotion which affects reasoning. Sentience is not just intellect it is: “An emotional being that displays an understanding of concepts, and even has conceptual thought” Emotion will be the hardest thing for a computer to emulate but it will have an understanding of the motivators of relationships that exist to the quantum levels.
In this respect, the singularity computer will identify all things with a common source, hopefully humans will be capable of this one day also.
I believe new ideas are both bits and pieces put together, but also, more importantly, due to chance. Things get discovered because humans thinks of ways to do something easier (like the wheel), or because something arbitrary happens which is interesting (like fire). These to effects combined is what have created all tech we know of. Arbitrary selection of ideas is the only true nature where new ideas come to live. The same way arbitrary mutations is the only way evolution gets “new ideas”.
This is a good and cool thought process, but it is heavily reliant on (what I believe to be) a flaw. Essentially, you say that the idea of a thing would exist before the thing exists itself, which I think is wrong. This is the view that essence precedes existence, which is extremely difficult to argue for. Almost all ancients, medievals, and moderns, believed and argued that existence precedes essence, and thus the thing would have to exist in either potentiality or actuality before the idea of it. It is a pretty basic fundamental principle of philosophy that things don’t bring themselves about, and so an idea could not have been the beginning of the universe. But as you said, something must have had that idea, and something must have “created” that idea. So once again we see a contradiction. Ideas can only come from other ideas, yet if this first idea just “popped into existence” it contradicts the first principle of your theory. Let me know what you think of what I’m saying, always good to get feedback
I first shine and EVERYTHING else shines afterward. Now who or what is this “I”? Well that’s the real question. EVERYTHING else is equal to the total universe – ideas that begets other ideas, 0’s and 1’s, bridges, sky, birds, stress, space/time etc. etc. If there is no “I” there is no universe! So I submit that “I” is just pure consciousness/awareness which transcends the world of space/time; or, anything contained in space/time is also contained in consciousness. This “I” cannot be objectified. I think your question is a good one by asking – Is our entire universe is just an idea in somebody’s head? I think it is.
@sonofsaul, towards the end when I mention ideas that we think off are parts of different universes. If we think about an idea of the beginning of a universe, it creates that universe (even if it is just in your mind.) this creates a chain of infinite universe and ours is just one out of the many. our universe isn’t anything special to any others. even more, since we could just be an idea that somebody came up with, the real question is, was if your mind that came up with this idea, or mine?
@spiralout1, so awesome…thank you for that!! If you have some free time, would you mind going into a little more depth about the trinity? More specifically, about the “soul” and what part it plays in the motion of the positive and negative forces of the universe.
@gizmodo ok, I see what you are saying now. And I really like the notion that when we think of a universe we in a way create it. But, if we take your claim that an idea is only ever a compilation of other ideas or things, there can’t be an infinite number of universes because only a finite amount of things exist, and therefore a finite amount of ideas must exist. You can’t get an infinite something out of a finite something. So any idea about any universe will exist as part of a finite number of vastly larger amount of ideas of universes because the ideas of any one universe were based off of something finite.
To say that ideas stem from other ideas may have some logic to it but to say that the imagination does not exist is flawed. There is no imagination but ideas are a piecing together of existing ideas, reverse engineering memories from experiences? This is absolutely flawed because children have the most active imaginations of us all and they have the least memories, the least knowledge of ideas, of us all. If anything, new ideas ground us more in “reality” and detatch us from fantasy, the realm that is sourced of the imagination.