The world is becoming rapidly smaller and increasingly interdependent. This comes as a result of the globalisation of trade and resources and as such, nations need one another more than ever. The amendment of a nation’s problems and consequently YOUR problems depends on the interests and cooperation of other nations. The world is shrinking to such an extent that you are obviously connected to all parts of it, therefore, “destruction of your enemy is destruction of yourself.” Thus, the very concept of war is becoming outdated. We need to develop a sense of universal responsibility and expand our sense sense of self and sense of society to include every part of the world we interact with.
To be quite honest, I don’t think the idea of war was ever “indated”. There is never a reason for war, it’s pointless and achieves very little.
Yes, there are some cruel men in power but must it be overcome with the death of hundreds if not thousands of people? I cannot and never will see the justification of it.
@caoimhesweeney, Did you seriously just say war achieves nothing? So you’d be totally cool with the Nazi Empire still being around? Dude, you just verbally slapped every veteran out there right in the face. If it weren’t for them and their VALIANT service to our country on the battlefield, you’d be posting that comment in German right now. Every scholarly historian out there would agree with me.
Shame on you for saying that. You very clearly have zero understanding of how the world works outside of your comfortable little kumbaya utopia.
@Jameson, your arguement doesnt achieve anything, if people at the individual level realized fighting with others achieves nothing, they wouldnt be at the level to start wars, and as above said optimally war wouldnt be necessary as it really doesnt achieve anything except more violence, fire to fight fire, so if war wasnt present there wouldnt have been any nazi regime warring nations. All is understandable and we just arent at that level of consiousness to put violence aside, so lets hope we will be there soon.
@classicoliver, very nicely said. I believe the human race is getting to where we understand, for the most part, that war and fighting (like the rest of this thread) is pointless and hindering for ALL parties. Keep up the good mind work!
@donjaime23 thank you for the assumptions, you very clearly know me exceptionally well.
Yes, WW2 was fought for what is called a good reason… but was in necessary to spill as much blood? If the problem was in Germany, why were there so many other countries bombed, innocent people killed? WW2 probably would never have happened if it weren’t for WW1. Hitler would have had nothing to stand on to gain support if it weren’t for his promises to get justice for the punishment Germany got for WW1, a war which could have been very easy to avoid!
Are you saying that those men are happy they went out and fought? That they enjoy the psychological damage most of them got as a result of the war? That, when faced with the severe amounts of gruesome death and destruction, knowing that at any moment, they could be blown apart/suffocated/shot, they were thinking how great war is? Or would you say they would rather be in the comfort of their own homes, with friends and family.
Have you ever read Dulce et Decorum est? Or Harbingers by Curtis D Bennett?
I meant no insult to any person, but do not tell me that these veterans would have chosen war if there was an alternative. What about now? Why is there still military? Who are they protecting? I’ve heard many reports of how people are proud to serve their country and protect the people… against what? What are American troops doing over in the Middle East, except being slaughtered? I don’t see pictures of men and women being flown out and think “Well done, you’re doing the right thing, fair play to you”. I think to myself; “what the hell do you think you’re doing? What’s the point? What are you hoping to achieve in risking your life for nothing? Honour? Justice? Duty? Pah, you have a choice in this and you choose to waste you life for nothing”.
@caoimhesweeney, The more you speak, the further validated my assumptions about you are.
YES. YES ALL THE BLOODSHED IN WW2 WAS NECESSARY. PERIOD. END OF STORY.
We need a military because if we didn’t have one, we wouldn’t be the United States of America, we’d be the territory of another country.
As far as the involvement in the Middle East: I blame the politicians for getting us mixed up there in the first place. What you apparently don’t seem understand though is that our military today is ENTIRELY VOLUNTARY. Every single soldier that’s over there is over there by their own decision. As far as honor and justice go: Every soldier holds those values in their own individual way and whether they find it in the Middle East or not is up to each of them, not you. I especially wouldn’t talk about duty if I were you–I doubt you have any real concept of what duty truly means outside your books and poems.
Look, I’m not saying war is a beautiful thing. Of course it isn’t. It’s death and destruction on a mind-blowingly massive scale. What I’m arguing though is that it isn’t outdated. Sometimes it’s a necessary inevitability of humanity. There is far too much diversity within the human race for us all to get along and sing kumbaya. War is an INEVITABILITY.
My problem with people like you is that you refuse to understand the greater picture of war and its causes, you write it off completely, you bury your head in the sand to the way the real world actually works, and then worse, you whine about why the world can’t be the way you envision it.
Because the world doesn’t revolve around you or your beliefs. So put a band-aid on that bleeding heart of yours, you dirty hippie.
It’s the Rothschilds! They funded hitler… they didn’t like all the jewish ppl, although I believe they are jewish? don’t seem to like muslims either… they are the guiding hand of the U.S military, they are the power of Isreal.. If you don’t know now you know :)
It’s sad what you say Jameson.. there is no draft, our soilders sign up to fight for such a noble cause with only crumbs of truth… I don’t like the idea that there is so much diversity we have to fight.. I think there are real problems that have to be addressed, like population and resource control. They are very serious, real issues.. The way our wars transpire, and they way they end up do not serve justice.. I’m not saying I have the solution, but the world is under dictatorship, make no mistake about it.. and these wars are manufactured are largely manufactured
Rousing from my long slumber, I come once again to dispense my wisdom.
@classicoliver, Actually, the reasons you have listed make war all the more necessary. A shrinking world means there’s less for everyone, and since a unified system of economics is impossible, conflict remains the most tried and true method of determining who receives the lion’s share of the profit. Furthermore, humans are also incapable of forming a society on the global scale. If anything, nations are getting smaller every day with more and more independent factions springing up, so it’s only a matter of time before society becomes as splintered. Until we can find the secret to unlimited energy (and we won’t), war will not only be current, it will be a fundamental reason for existence.
A unified system of economics is what the world is going towards, remember bush senior saying ‘a new world order’ … The Euro sound familiar? And creating free power would cause to much freedom so that’s why it won’t happen…. I saw that some scientist created unlimited enegry but his lab blew up, wonder why.. it can be done.. there was a guy on tv that made his car run on garbage….
Unified system of economics impossible? Humans incapable of forming society on the global scale? Mankind won`t find the secret to unlimited energy? Don`t think so.
A hundred years ago, it would be unthinkable something like the European Union could ever exist. In fact, one could say that Europe was destined to an “eternity” of wars amongst its nations, since History repeatedly confirmed that throughout the centuries. Now take a good look at that region again.
We won`t find the secret to unlimited energy? Well, that would be really frustrating, since we have a fountain of virtually inexorable energy right next to us (the Sun) and we could make energy out of one of the most abundant elements in the universe (hydrogen). It`s a matter of necessity, that`s all. We`re still on oil because we haven`t reached peak oil. From there on, investing in alternatives will be mandatory.
The main reason why WW1 and WW2 were nessecary was to show us why we can’t afford to keep doing that shit. Really, no one tolerates invasions any more, that was proved when Iraq invaded Kuwait and that is a big reason for the unilateral occupation of Iraq right now. A reason why Syria is not interfered with is because they have no design on their neighbours. A big reason why Iran and North Korea may be targetted is for their agression toward their neighbours, mounting intent for violence.
People are quick to call the U.S oppressors, and indeed they do have oil motivations in Iraq, but they have no design to keep that land but only to help establish its own stable sovereignty, and that has with it global economic advantages.
Afghanistan is not even a sovereign nation, never has been, it is just a multi-tribal mess of violence. There are people who just want a chance there and are trying to build something but for every 5 terrified people who are willing to try there is one willing to try and kill those brave souls.
The fact is; If you have no intention of enslaving people and killing anyone who resists then no one will have a problem with you, there is no blaming anyone else for your intent and it is obvious why people want to stop that, you can’t twist those facts to justify your cause. That is not war, it is the logical reaction to unacceptable behaviour, what do you expect?
Sure, the Western world doesn’t have it all figured out yet but they are not a barbaric ravel and the people have a much greater measure of independance and self-determination as fruit of their labours.
Perhaps we should start with some definitions.
Unified System of Economics: A system of distributing wealth so that everyone agrees to it. Sounds good so far, except when things inevitably get bad. Will you still agree to this system when it decides that your child will starve while someone else’s child will have a full stomach?
Global Society: A single power structure that holds every person under it’s protection. You bring up the European Union, which I keep hearing it falling apart at the seams. But looking at the USA for example, we have two alliances each preventing the other from functioning, mostly out of spite. I literally cannot hold a conversation with my next door neighbors without it breaking into a political argument.
Unlimited Energy: Energy which produces more out of it’s reaction than what went into this reaction. This is impossible both scientifically and philosophically. You bring up solar energy, but as I’ve tried to point out before on this site, solar energy used on a mass scale, may prove more disastrous to our planet than all the fossil fuels we could possibly burn. The Earth gets more energy on it’s surface in one second than we could use in a year, true. But it takes all that energy just to keep our planet functioning. Unless you want to build a Dyson Sphere around the sun, solar energy isn’t the solution. And even then, it will only be feasible as long as the sun has hydrogen to fuse. It will stop someday.
To sum up, we live in a world of finite resources and biological impulses dictate that we keep as much of them to us and ours. And the best, most efficient means of deciding who gets what is to kill the person who wants to take what you need to survive.
War is completely outdated. Our pride and our egos are the only reason wars continue on today. Its not hippy thinking to realize that people are born different and with different beliefs, if we can get past this blockage in our animal brains and stop trying to push our beliefs and customs on others than we could avoid a lot of useless fighting.
Like Edwin Starr said. War what is it good for… absolutely nothing! Say it again!!!
@donjaime23, Erm…not to rustle any jimmies, but what is the point of having a millitary if there is no war? Best case scenario, you got bunch of people who are unhappy and miserable for not doing the work theyre supposed to be doing. The very act of preparation for war greatly increases the chances of there ever being one.As does the division of nations. And exclusion of the individual. And the wish for power. All the great benefits of living in the modern western world seem as perfect conditions for a baby war to grow big and strong actually.
@classicoliver, I don’t think the world is shrinking I think it’s growing, and like a bunch of over weight people in a room, they’re closer to eachother compared to skinny people standing at the same points in the room. It’s all growing and we’re becoming more connected with one another.
@caoimhesweeney, @donjaime23, I’d like to add that the real travesty of WW2 was the fact that it had to get so bad before the people of the world decided to actually do something about it. Also, war is only necessary because of the “the world we live in”, which is simply an illusion based on histories which we identify with. If we are to believe that the state of the world is malleable to the will of its inhabitants, then it logically follows that war is not necessary since the state of the world is contextual.
War begets war begets a society based on and created by war. War and acts of violence are not justified by morality or ethics and I adamantly oppose them, but they have been justified by laws that have governed human society throughout its modern development. Politics devoid of ethics, however, does nothing to further humanity and these misguided instruments of our political culture have distorted our ideals and desires. War is unnecessary and is born out of ignorance and stupidity. It is fought in the name of benefiting a collection of peoples, however all people share common needs and conditions by the nature of their humanity. War is therefore fundamentally counterproductive. In the name of peace, a global society is in fact undesirable ( @thelaughingfool, ). Given the diverse dispositions within the human community, a variety of political systems and ideologies is desirable. What is required of them, is an emphasis on what we share and an appreciation of our common human condition. As stated in my original post, this is becoming increasingly highlighted and essential in a shrinking world. Concurrently, because all nations are more economically dependent upon one another than ever before, human understanding must go beyond national boundaries to embrace the international community at large.
Again, you`re talking about solar energy given the current technology available. Solar energy is way underfunded, we are far from the optimal production we could achieve. Yes, with what we have now to supply our energy needs we would have to cover half of the planet with solar panels, but that`s exactly my point: solar energy is still crawling.
And I`m not talking only about solar panels. I`m talking about fusion here. And research related to fusion reactions intended to produce energy are also way underfunded. That`s because we are comfortable with oil for now, and the profit that comes from it is ridiculously high. But fusion nuclear plants “raw material” (in theory) is virtually infinite in the universe (hydrogen). The current problem with fusion is that the energy necessary to start the reaction is higher than the energy it ends up producing, but no scientists familiar with the area dare to say it`s impossible, mainly because it`s evident that it is a matter of developing the technological layers needed to optimize this reaction to the way it`s intended.
So, again, you are not considering human innovation in your equations. This is the kind of of thing that turned obsolete Thomas Malthus predictions in regard to population/production.
And yes, the Sun will die off someday, but hey, we are talking about billions of years in the future.
And again, your predictions around a unified system of economics and a global society is based in the current stage of mankind. You are ignoring fundamental variables (collectable in History) that are needed in this kind of “prediction”. Mankind institutions mutate, they are constructed upon past ones, in an constant evolution of what we call our extensions (that transcend man himself).
Your argument that a unified system of economics need everyone to agree with it also does not add up. You have people starving in the USA, in Europe, in Argentina, in India, but that do not stop those countries from keeping their political/economic unity, does it? The unity of human organizations do not rely on agreement among everyone.
Again, i`m not saying these things WILL happen, but your argument that they are unfeasible lacks of a greater justification.
For a really good discussion about WWII and pacifism, you all should read Nicholson Baker’s “Human Smoke.” I am not quite sure if I believe his premise exactly, but he does provide a lot of archival knowledge about how the Allies provoked both Germany and Japan.
Another interesting read is one about the Great Influenza of WWI. In this book (sorry, don’t remember name), the author conjectures that Woodrow Wilson had influenza before he signed the treaty; he was so weakned that he could not fight against the powers that wanted to crush Germany (he hadn’t wanted to before his illness).