I have seen a lot of discussions on HE about drug usage and their benefits towards obtaining some state, information, higher consciousness, etc. I have nothing against any form of experience one might want to try and definitely I don’t support governments decisions to ban natural substances like DMT, LSD and so on. But I have seen the tendency to look for meaningful and real mind blowing life changing experiences and some form of catalyst for meditation or replacing meditation altogether with drug use.
I have stumbled upon this excerpt from a discussion with Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh aka Osho, whom I respect very much, where he addresses the question of spacing out vs spacing in. If you have the time and feel like reading this excerpt about it, please leave your opinions about this issue.
Thank you all for being!
Here is the excerpt:
Question – Bhagwan, why are people spacing out instead of in?
Osho – Because spacing out is simple. It can be done through chemical means, through drugs, through alcohol, through LSD, through marijuana, through hashish. It is simple, because the question is just eating something or smoking something, and you space out. But no drug can take you in. They are from the outside, they can take you outside. They can create a very beautiful hallucination. And once you have tasted that beautiful hallucination, then you want it more and more — because the reality is so mundane.
Your forefathers, your past, has destroyed all beauty, all joy in the ordinary world. They have not enhanced it. So when you go on a drug trip, you create an individual dreamworld which is beautiful. And to come back from it, this world seems even more dull and dead than before. Now you have a comparison.
Going in needs effort. No chemicals can help. Going in means you have to become meditative. You have to make tremendous effort to become aware. Certainly once you get in, you will be surprised, that whatever you were getting by spacing out was just hallucination. You were wasting your time. Spacing out was hallucination and the world outside was dull, but when you get in through meditation, — that is the only way that leads inwards — it transforms your whole vision. The ordinary, mundane reality becomes so beautiful. You don’t need to go to any paradise. The very motivation for paradise disappears. This very moment it is here.
The ordinary flowers and the ordinary birds singing in the morning, it is so celestial, so sacred. Looked from your innermost core, this world becomes so magnificent, so marvellous, that you cannot conceive anything can be better than this. And once you are in, all those drugs look stupid, because you were just dreaming and deceiving yourself. But they are simple and cheap.
Spacing in is costly. You have to pay for it, by your effort, by your constant effort in spite of many failures. It is a real growth. It takes time. But it is worth, millions times more worth than the whole world — because it will give you a new vision, which transforms this ordinary world into an extraordinary ecstasy.
Source – Osho Book “Last Testament, Vol 6″
Joe Rogan stated on a podcast once how using drugs to reach a psychodellic state is “spiritual theft” because the user didn’t have to “work” to acheive their results.. they just did it instantly with a drug.
Food for thought that relates to thi slightly..
@lesterxp, I just wanna say fuck Osho because he is selling meditation. Meditation is becoming a new age religion and it is making me sick to my stomach.
Meditation is what you do when there is nothing left to do – it does not lead to enlightenment any more than LSD does.
In fact Marijuana, LSD, etc lay straight scourge on the dysfunction of the ego while meditation when done wrong (very easy to do!) can actually strengthen the dysfunction.
@cms9690, Joe Rogan is a retarded, overly-inspired, teenage-mindsetted jock though, too. So. yeah..
@danfontaine, If by meditation you mean a fixed posture while focusing ones mind in one point then yes I agree, that “meditation” is a dysfunction, a lie of the ego. Meditation is not a practice, a thing to do, there is no goal to it, rather is a state that is not induced or produced, but realized. Meditation is the natural state and has nothing to do with religious practices, with stilling the body or focusing the mind. Meditation just happens throughout the cycle of life at any given time – doesn’t matter if one sits, walks, works, kills, sleeps, thinks, talks, dreams.
I know no drug or practice that can induce or produce Meditation.
ALL of this has everything to do with nervous system health. Hard work and love are the most fundamental precepts to relaxation of the nerves – you don’t sit there and aspire about lofty concepts that float through the clouds cause I’ll walk right up and slap you off your cushion – that is why.
As for attentiveness of the nerves, attentiveness meditations might actually be the best exercise for this, along with yoga. I don’t really see anyone talking about this shit though – the fuck, guys.
“ALL of this has everything to do with nervous system health. Hard work and love are the most fundamental precepts to relaxation of the nerves – you don’t sit there and aspire about lofty concepts that float through the clouds cause I’ll walk right up and slap you off your cushion – that is why.”
Very true. But when people turn to meditation to solve deeper problems they are losing sight of themselves. However, meditation, under the right circumstances is very useful. Not always for enlightenment, not for the answers to all existence… sometimes you just need to get away from all the bs and suddenly you become grounded and you know what it is you want. It keeps me grounded from the bs that tries to lift me into the sky. I don’t meditate regularly anymore, I started getting shit done.
Good point though my man, you’ve been heated lately but you’re saying what no one else wants to say
@lesterxp, K I like what you’re saying but,
“If by meditation you mean a fixed posture while focusing ones mind in one point then yes I agree, that “meditation” is a dysfunction, a lie of the ego.”
I don’t see why you are blasting this form of meditation. It is the disciplinary/attentive form of meditation – one pointed focus is just the beginning. Only shrouded by ego in so far as the ego might be butt hurt that you are trying to improve your mind.
@danfontaine, I don’t mean to blast it, but I see that 99% of the spiritual seekers are meditating with some goal and focused on an idea. It is a form pf therapy, a starting point, has its benefices but it is also a trap. And very few are aware of this trap and tend to remain stuck in this incipient form of quieting the mind. Sadly if no proper guidance is involved (let’s say a guru) in this process of meditation, the next step will never come and ego will only get stronger and the lie, bigger. This is the new age bullshit that most so called “gurus” are selling.
@winslow, I am mad. I’m mad at my nerves, and I’m mad at the nerve of everyone around me.
My nerves are a perpetuation of my past, and right when I thought I was rid of tension those around me spark it anew. Wait, sike. I spark it a new.
I am currently trying to dominate everything that irks me, whether or not this is healthy for myself – I do not know. If it is healthy for those around me – I think, probably.. I think I am doing it in a just manner. I judge character and I let character be, but when it upsets me so, I am inclined to ordinate.
So you got problems relaxing your nerves? I’d say the only solution is to stop antagonizing yourself. You aren’t bad – you can’t be, can you?
@egarim, Thanks man.
But yeah, what’s the difference between manually grounding yourself and avoiding your problems through escapism?
Ya doing it for ‘enlightenment’ is some bullshit – enlightenment isn’t how well you can rest, it is how well you deal with the rest. While you can’t solve personal problems with your mind, I, however, do agree that it has its benefits; like allowing you to assimilate/transmute stress into fervor. Also to transmute fear into love.
These are advanced techniques though, and it is pathetic that someone like me uses these to cope with life when the solution is so obvious.
I wonder what kind of transmutations I would be focused on if I had my life under control.
Anxiety into Creativity is what I want to work on.
@lesterxp, Word. I definitely ran into that trap at a point, not too long ago really. Thought meditation was an objective toward some imaginary enlightenment. Now I understand meditation is either rest or it is muscle contraction – of the mind!
I throw the word enlightenment around without really thinking about it. Just to clear that up – my exact definition of enlightenment is: to be relaxed and attentive simultaneously. As if in deep NREM sleep and in a basketball game at the same time.
@seeker, meditation for the sake of meditation is fruitless, no? My deepest meditations just so happen to be when my heart is jubilant and there is nothing left to do but to feel it all. I could always draw a picture but shit, the waves are so seductive and inspiring – when I feel there is no other other option is when I really start feeling the God inside me.
Now I wonder.. is that counter-productive?
When to decide to shut the fuck up and do art? Aye, there’s the rub.
@lesterxp, I guess I am spacing out because i like the thrill of loosing myself in existence. Isnt that kind of what the world is for anyways?
Why would you go back inside yourself when youve made all this effort to create this huge playground where you can loose yourself completly in the act of existence?
Sure I would admit to being really afraid sometimes and i have lots of doubts, but you can always ground yourself again. Or maybe there is an edge somwhere wich once you cross it you cant come back. But is separating from existence and creating your own existence really a bad thing? I kind of believe that was how this universe was made in the first place.
Drugs are just multipliers. I guess the difference is action vs laziness.
I’ve always disagreed with Osho to be honest, there’s something I just disagree with every time I read a part of his messages. It could be the language barrier, but I’m not sure, some of his claims are arguable. “Your forefathers, your past, has destroyed all beauty, all joy in the ordinary world.” – This sounds like utter bollocks to me, because my forefathers haven’t developed the exact science about happiness to be destroyed.
The only drug I take is alcohol, because I never felt the need for something mind-altering and my imagination can do that on its own. Alcohol isn’t the most loyal friend though. The major consumption of it is based on finding guilt or seeking pleasure, which are self-convictions, already coming from from the inside, and influenced by the outside. I guess people take substances because it lets them either space in or out in a more stabilized way whether or not they notice the natural process. I don’t think only one of them occurs in one’s mind at the same time, and the mind seeks relief and smooth flow of thoughts without outer disturbance. When a mind realizes that its personal fears are not something other people possess, it could space in and out more easily.
“Cookie, cookie, cookie!” – The Cookie Monster
It appears to me that a lot of people misunderstand mediation, or being in a state of deep introspection or contemplation. Of course there is the physical discipline of maintaining pose and having your thoughts transcend that of concern for movement. I respect this concept greatly, but I feel that it is unnecessary. We are living things, we are in motion. So why not engage in active mediation? Why must one sit down to think? I find that, especially through intense periods of movement, such as cycling or dance, our minds being to function with more efficiency. It would make sense to me, that during the course of such activities we could essentially reflect more effectively.
@ravecandy, Wow, what’s all the cynicism about meditation on this thread. Have a meditation practice then see how much more power is reflected in your periods of intense movement.
@danfontaine, Awareness meditation does two things, its brings awareness to sensations and equanimity to those sensations, so when you go about your life you aren’t engaged in a habitual cycle of reactivity, you are able to pause, reflect, and act with intent and compassion toward the situation. You are sharpening your rather dull mind to be more present in the here and now..all we really have.
You become less of a product and more of an artist.
@mikeyo, the way you explained what meditation is sounds like if you don’t meditate, you’ll be a person with lack of compassion and unaware of your own reactions. “You are sharpening your rather dull mind to be more present” – You really underestimate people if you think if they don’t meditate, they’ll be dull and lack presence. Introspection is something everyone can do when you give yourself the proper amount of time. You don’t even have to call it meditation. An activity sometimes is done just because you need to do something, some people think/meditate better when they take a simple walk or do something else while they’re introspecting. It’s not some magical secret that people need to relax after they’re worked up. And meditation helps with more than two things, it regulates your breathing, your heart-rate and if deeper it can let you get in touch with the emotions you repressed.
Seriously though, this has been said too often not to notice what are people even talking about when they say “awareness” and “meditation”. It takes an activity or a real life example to need the awareness and sharpness everyone loves. For example – not getting distracted under pressure or making important decisions quickly to keep up with the variable tempo in some kind of rhythmic dynamic teamwork. (oh, yeah, baby)
Coming from someone who has meditated more than once on psychedelics, I would have to disagree with this post.
I also think that people still don’t fully grasp the art of meditation either. Most people assume you just meditate by sitting down and closing your eyes, but meditation can be done in a wide variety of ways. You can meditate while practicing some free throws, or even when its super busy at work.