Woah woah slow down, big statement I’m well aware, but as big as your ego? I don’t know haha, let’s find out! Let us begin our intelligent debate here. Before you go digging in your bag of assumptions let me explain, as best as I can, what I mean by “absolutely anything that happens is meant to happen”:
Flashback. Two months ago you met this girl (let’s use the guy perspective for this example) while at work. Your job is not necessarily important, what is important is that this girl began showing up to your work place more and more often and she would go out of her way to get your attention. You didn’t do jack shit. You never saw her again. You regret it. Two months later, you’re back in the present. You wonder about alternate realities and “mistakes” and “choices” you could have made. You wonder where you’d be now if you made a move. Boom. Stop.
There is a reason why you didn’t talk to her. I am not talking divine intervention or a grand plan. I mean that something, some logic, some thought process went on in your head that led you to choose not to make a move. Whatever this thought process was, it happened and forever is it written in history. “Don’t regret anything, because at the time it was exactly what you wanted.” People tell themselves that things could have been different or that “accidents” occur… but they do not. Ever since the first causal action (Big Bang, God, magical elephants took a huge dump), everything that followed is an effect (an endless chain of effects). Let me go on.
You’re walking and you feel a splat on your arm. Bird shit. Was that chance? No it isn’t. That bird didn’t pop into existence over your head at just the right trajectory to take a shit on your ever so important arm… it had a birth however long ago and lived a life and is continuing to live its life and was already flying on a certain path long before you stepped outside today and you were taking a certain a route and it shat on you. There are certain precursors or preceding events that led that bird to be where it was to be able to even shit on you to begin with…. there are no accidents anywhere. Humans are shortsighted so they don’t see the causality behind things but everything that happens is destined (not magical destiny, I mean that it had to happen if it does happen).
Guy gets hit by car. No chance involved. That guy, doing whatever he was doing, following whatever logic that he was following was set on a course to be hit by that car.. rewind the clocks somehow and every single time he would get hit by the car. Once anyone makes a decision, that decision is cemented in eternity.
Just a thought
@egarim, “Absolutely anything that happens is meant to happen” Yes, once it happens it was always meant to happen, but before it happens there are personal powers of variation that each of us have. At any given point we can alter our own intent, for any number of reasons, and that changes our actions accordingly.
yes, life is about energy and choices. it’s amazing to think about all the things we went through and the reasons why we are where we are right now right here in this very moment. there is a reason for everything. deep inside, we know all things. open yourself up and you will become aware.
Of course we have the power of choice which allows for the (perceived) variety of outcomes, but please indulge me and think: we have the choices before something happens, but that choice we ultimately make is the one that was meant to happen. Logical conclusion, is it not?
I’m becoming more aware with each day. Thank you for your thoughts!
@egarim, Well pre-destiny or not, does not change our lives one iota, we are subject to occurances but only we can change how we respond to any given circumstance.
I like to look at the pre-destiny idea this way: Pre-destiny is a train, it is set on the rails and has its schedualed stops and ultimate destination, but people get on and get off where they want/need to and while they are aboard they can have any number of various interactions, such as read the newspaper or a book, talk on a phone or to other passengers, they can take a dump in the facilities or bang another passenger in there, they can sleep or get drunk, stick their head out the window or pull the emergency brake, but no matter how the train may be delayed, the intended purpose of it never changes, it will eventually get underway and complete its schedual.
I don’t follow. All I am saying is that if something happens, it was bound to happen or else it would not have happened. So, in the big picture, all things that happen are “meant” to happen.
I am not sure if we are on the same page. All I am merely trying to say is that the daily things that happen (car wrecks, pedestrians getting hit by cars that wreck, disease contracted by people, suicides, lotteries won, etc.) are “destined” to happen… they happen because they were meant to happen… they happen because some series, some chain of events occurred before it that led to them happening. No chance is involved. We all have free will, but we are all predisposed to act in a certain way. I have the free will to ignore your response, but something in my nature, something in my head leads me to respond. The ultimate conclusion is that we make our choices but the ultimate choices we make are the ones that were bound to be made.
I agree that things happen for a reason and there’s no such thing as coincidence.
the things/examples that you mentioned are a bit straightforward. like you know, something happens, it happens. but each individual has a chance to take part in writing their own destiny instead of a already-written kinda destiny. for example, when we encounter the decisions that will change the direction of our lives forever (careers, partners, etc).
@egarim, If I’m following you, then you are saying that our past affects our future. What would happen then if someone just “appeared” into the world, equivalent to a 20 year old. No experience, no past, no preconceptions. Just pure innocence. I don’t know if the same rules apply to him/her (disregarding the world for a second) when he/her makes a decision.
It is precisely due to the cause and effect nature of the world and everything that such a person cannot exist.
I am not talking “pre-destiny” in the sense that you cannot decide your life for yourself. You and everyone else can make the daily decisions that change your lives dramatically… but what I am saying is that the “choice” you ultimately make… is the one you are destined to make. No one is telling you who to marry, per say, but whoever you pick is the one you were “destined” to pick because you picked that person didn’t you? How can someone say something was not “meant” to happen or it could have “happened differently” if what happened, happened to begin with? If something HAPPENS there is proper cause to cause it to happen.
All you got to do is think why outcomes occur in a certain way… why we make certain decisions. It’s all a snowball of past occurrences continuously influencing the world and everything. You have complete free-will, but everything you do is fated because ultimately you make one decision at a time, each decision being the one you “chose” and fate is merely the string of all our choices.
I believe in determinism because randomness does not exist in my mind. Randomness does not exist because of the the cause and effect of the physical realm where matter reacts to each other base on nature’s law. If you were to flip a coin, most people would say its 50/50. However its predetermined due to many variables that if known, can precisely calculate the end result each time. Variables such as angle of the flip, power of the flip, friction of the air, wind, weight distribution of the coin, the surface of the coin’s landing and etc.
Unless there is a non-physical realm (which is possible) then free will has no place within my logic. Sorry to burst your bubbles but the concept that a person has a choice is an illusion, IMHO.
@egarim, things are only ‘meant’ to happen if the observer places ‘meaning’ on the matter. Without this human concept of meaning there only is. Then life is like a river that flows completely formless only shaping to the path of least resistance.
We choose how we rationalize, and thereby what desires develop in our minds, which is what determines our “automatic” unconscious actions and reactions, which in turn leads us to whatever events we stumble across.
There’s no random chance, there are no accidents, and there is no destiny. Everything happens for a reason, and we make those reasons.
That’s what’s really behind all those “spiritual” theories about things such as “the law of attraction” and “karma.” Everything that happens in your life is just a result of your previous actions, everything that happens in your life has been earned. Circumstances do not mean much, it’s all about how you deal with circumstances.
Thoughts become beliefs and habits, beliefs and habits determine what catches your attention and what you ignore, what you submit to and what you resist. That’s what sets your course in life, the more you understand it the easier it becomes to get to where you want to go.
People who believe in destiny and/or say that there is no free will are simply resisting responsibility, they’re afraid of seeing the truth that all their fuckups and misery were their own doing.
Like a sailor who set sail without learning about boats and water and wind, now he’s getting tossed around by the waves, unable to go anywhere, he cannot reach his destination, he’s at the mercy of the waves.
So he rationalizes that those other sailors who got to where they wanted were just lucky, that their ships were better, or that the ocean treated them better… when in fact the difference was that they did it right and he didn’t. Or he might even go as far as denying that the other sailors succeeded (people who say there is no free will, that everything is just a reaction.)
The truth is, the sailor is just a lazy bloated ego who can’t accept that it’s his own fault, and that he should learn how to sail. It’s never too late to learn, and what better place to learn about sailing than on the waves?
It’s easy to blame everything on destiny, or saying that everything is just an effect of some causal event at the beginning of time, but it simply isn’t true.
Most animals live purely by instinct, instinct is completely reactive, each reaction is just an effect.
But the conscious mind is not, the conscious mind can think and understand and decide, independent of circumstances. Consciousness brings free will, you can’t have one without the other.
The less conscious you are, the less free you are. If you think you have no free will, that is true for you, you close your mind to the fact that you can’t decide and so you become like the lousy sailor. Sacrificing consciousness for ego comfort.
It’s high time for you to learn how to sail.
The ego is what takes us where we want to go, the ego can only do what you tell it to do. It’s your vehicle, and just because you’re not aware of how you’re steering it that doesn’t mean you’re not doing it.
The more conscious you become, the more you realize that it’s all results of what YOU do. The less you realize this, the less conscious you are.
Enlightenment is empowering, liberating, not limiting.
Like they say:
“THERE IS NO POWER THAT IS NOT KNOWLEDGE.”
How much you know, AKA how conscious you are, determines how much power you can have. And thus how free you can be.
Because in reality Power, freedom and responsibility are one and the same, and how much of it you can have is determined by your level of enligthenment.
There is no on/off switch of enlightenment, everyone is enlightened to different degrees, and to different things. However, you can always have more of it.
BUT NOT IF YOU DENY YOUR RESPONSIBILITY/FREEDOM.
Every success and every failure is your own doing, but in reality they’re not different, success and failure are really just results. Feedback.
Every feeling you have is due to your own thoughts, YOU make yourself happy and sad and bored.
The more conscious you become, the more powerful and free you become.
If it isn’t liberating and empowering IT ISN’T ENLIGHTENMENT.
And as long as you value your beliefs higher than truth and reality, you will not understand this.
And THAT is all about the ego. The ego THRIVES on beliefs, especially limiting ones such as BLAME. Which is what the start of this thread was about, BLAME.
The ego DOES NOT LIKE responsibility, because the more responsible you are the less power the ego has over you.
When you say “big statement I’m well aware, but as big as your ego?”
that’s absolutely HILARIOUS. It’s so ironic, because a big ego makes it IMPOSSIBLE to control your life. A bloated ego LOVES the idea that there is no free will.
FREE WILL AND EGO OPPOSE EACHOTHER.
It’s high time to hoist the sails and grab the rudder.
Like Jesus said “Is it not written in your books? YE ARE ALL GODS.”
The human experience, the way it’s meant to be lived.
Don’t be an ass, don’t sacrifice this opportunity just to stroke your sorry little ego.
Hey bro, the whole 50/50 thing… that gave me chills. Why? Cause I wrote a long post on it, please read it and let me know if I explained it well: https://www.highexistence.com/topic/everything-is-fated-to-occur/
You are misunderstanding my use of the word “destiny”. A lot of people are misunderstanding it as a matter of fact. Please take a breath everyone and let me try to explain (I am honestly trying my best to explain what I mean):
You have free-will. You go do whatever you want. There is no “destiny” in the sense that you have to be a certain way, or end up a certain a way, or have certain outcomes occur because your life is “predetermined” for you. You can go become a singer if you’re a businessman, go roll with the wolves if you want to (literally), do whatever you want.
What I am saying is that YOUR CHOICES (made out of free-will) ARE DESTINY. Think of “destiny” as something beyond the concept of experiential time. When someone utters destiny, most people immediately assume they mean it in the future-sense… like certain things in the future are decided for you… but I mean the past, present and future all together on a timeline–that is your, our destiny. Once our lives have passed, who is to say (if we are able to reflect upon all the events of our life) that there is no destiny.. put your life (birth to death) on a timeline and you could see all the causes and influences that made you make certain decisions that affected your life. The collective choices you make are what constitute your destiny.
Free will and destiny can coexist because destiny is not some conscious thing that decides your life for you. This is destiny in the sense that you are destined to be who you are and make the choices you make, so certain outcomes will occur as you act out of free will. The world is not chaotic whatsoever, every effect has a cause. You go act of your complete free will and do wild things, but everything is “determined” to a certain degree.
This conversation for instance is proof of destiny. I have the free will to choose whether to post or not, but ultimately, it seems the choice I made was to post. It is “destiny” that I posted because I ultimately did post. We all have our predispositions, I will react to your comments in a certain way, I still retain my free will, but it is destiny happening again. Destiny, in this sense, is merely the ultimate result of everyone’s free will.
@egarim, Wow, your discussion took off strong. I’ve done deterministic posts, but I guess my posts are a little more advanced and people are too lazy to think. But essentially you’re just advocating for determinism in layman’s terms here. I’ve done a lot of thought on the matter of determinism, and have come to a lot of conclusions, which are philosophical in nature and don’t serve practical use. However, one thing that you should take from your belief in pre-destiny is a new outlook towards others. Realize that everyone is victim to being the way they are because we are all victim to determinism. If somebody is mean, it is not their fault. They did not choose to be mean, they simply had a bad family, or a bad youth. But everything that shapes a man is an external influence that they didn’t choose to experience. People are exactly the way you could predict them to be deterministically (if only we could extrapolate). So forgive everyone for everything, always. And always be nice. It’s hard for me to always live like this, but I’m trying to, and you should to.
One step ahead of you. Please, I am not bullshitting you, read my other thread it covers what you said about people that are “mean” not choosing to be mean: https://www.highexistence.com/topic/we-are-all-the-same-person-one-soul-a-lesson-in-human-empathy/
Simply put, no one chose to be who they are… we just all are. Given a body, a mind, a personality, a family, a face, a set of skills, circumstances (financial, familial, etc.), that we never chose. We are all the best copies of ourselves so when someone is acting violent you immediate blame them for being hotheaded or narrow minded… but you do not open your eyes and see that they are the most genuine copy of them: they are the original copy. You cannot possibly comprehend why they are the way they are, it is not a choice, they are just being the best copy of themselves.
Elion, can you please just listen to your own maniacal ranting? I am with you! I’m on the same page as you man! I practice liberation from the “self” every freaking day. How freaking twisted is it that someone (you) that is preaching free-will and responsibility is trying to belittle me? I’m on your side! And you quoted me? Are you fucking serious?
“When you say “big statement I’m well aware, but as big as your ego?”
that’s absolutely HILARIOUS. It’s so ironic, because a big ego makes it IMPOSSIBLE to control your life. A bloated ego LOVES the idea that there is no free will.”
For crying out loud Elion. This has nothing to do with the ego. I just replied to your post earlier trying to better explain what I meant by “destiny.” But IRONICALLY your INFLATED EGO leads you to ASSUME that when I say DESTINY I mean you have NO FREE WILL. But I specifically stated that they coexist, and that DESTINY IS THE COLLECTIVE RESULT OF YOUR CHOICES MADE USING FREE WILL (I know you like caps lock for emphasis).
We are all “destined” to be ourselves, “destined” to be who we are… in that sense we have our free will to decide with each day who we want to be. But in the big picture, everything we do is destined to what we are predisposed to do… our choices made out of free will are the destined choices so to speak.
@alltoohuman, Haha, you got me there. Most of my essays lack paragraphs, and I can understand why people find a mountain of text intimidating. Site looks interesting! Don’t have time to check it out in too much detail right now, though.
@egarim this is maybe true, For example.- you were studying in college in second year and fell in love with a beautiful girl . You guys were very happy but one day the girl said that she doesn’t want to be with you. You tried to repair the relation but to no avail. You went on a drinking rampage, drinking for atleast six months and staying at home listening to music and writing sad songs.Then one day while drinking you met some guys who played in a band. you became very close to them and they invited you to see their jam. you came to know that their vocalist is down with fever and they are inviting you to try just for fun. You try it out and they really like you. They ask you if you have any original songs and you remember the songs you wrote while sitting in darkness and when you were sad. You show them the songs and they like it so much they make a album with you as their vocalist and the album goes on to sale many copies.
In this, one situation leads on to the next which means without even a slight change the guy wouldn’t have become famous. In this story everything was meant to happen or happened for a reason. if the girl wouldnt have come to his life he wouldn’t have become sad and wrote songs or gone on drinking and would never have met those guys. If you take “whatever happens happens for good” everything that happens in your life leads on to the next . Even if you cry or become sad it’s maybe for a reason which you may come to know later or maybe years later.
But this puts the humankind in a dangerous place. It proves that there is no freewill which the humans so much want. The paragraph i am writing is of my own freewill and i know no one is making me write it but again this paragraph will lead to something otherwise i have no reason to write it. whatever you do was it supposed to happen or you did with your own freewill? This is a very hard question but not impossible. we just don’t have enough knowledge right now. :))
I’ve been reading on HE for some time now with growing pleasure, but your post finally made me sign up just a minute ago to comment on it.
So first of all, hello everyone!
I hope that I’m getting you right, but if I do, I’m absolutely happy that we share the same view on this topic. And I think it’s a point of view that not many people share, at least not to that extent.
I’m struggling a lot with this hole regret-thing and am trying to get rid of it. Therefore special thanks for the nice sentence: “Don’t regret anything, because at the time it was exactly what you wanted.” Is it a quote from somebody I should know or unknown author or your words?
I know the concept, we’re talking about, as physical determination. I think where it really is getting interesting is if you try fitting our feeling of free will into this concept. I strongly hope that I am wrong, but until now the most reasonable assumption for me is, that really everything (including our actions, choices, etc.) is predestined by causality (going down to the level of molecules and the most basic elements, that obey certain causal rules). Yet we feel, that we have a choice.
Maybe the most important thing, that arises from thinking about the things you said is: if we assume those things, what conclusions do we pull out of that for our daily life? If everything (and our actions, choices, thoughts, emotions) are predestined anyway, what should we do? What can we even do (I mean..we are predestined)?
But maybe, all of that does not really matter, because nobody is truly able to believe, that he or she has no free will and to act accordingly.
So, thanks for bringing up this truly important topic and expressing your thoughts in such nice and clear words!
Please feel free to pm me!
agreed. what you did was meant to happen only because that’s what you ended up doing. There are reasons for things to happen and any future outcome happens because of the preceding actions. We do still have free choice – it just means that had we chosen to do or say something else, then another set of possibilities would have been available. Everything is potential and so at any point in time there is a limitless amount of potential situations. But then we choose how to act or react to something and it defines the new subset of possibilities from the whole of the potential.
It seems there is much truth to the saying, “knowledge speaks, wisdom listens” haha.
I’ve spent so much time mouthing a bunch of theories and I need to stop for a while and just take in other people’s thoughts… this way I can better understand the information as a whole and better elaborate.
We are on the same page no doubt, if anything you explained it so much better than I did that I better understand it now (it’s all really confusing and mind boggling). I’ll admit I’m sick of fighting and arguing (it’s so pointless but it’s in my nature) with people over this topic because they always misunderstand what I am trying to say.
The quote about regret is not mine but if you’re trying to find the author I wish you luck haha, shouldn’t be too hard.
I feel that free will and destiny can and are coexisting; we can go more in depth with this if you want. Basically, as you refer to it as “physical determination” (well put!), everything is “predestined by causality” but what does that mean for us? Well I think it means it’s our destiny to be who we are… to act upon our free will (we choose our paths) but while understanding that the universe is set on a certain “predestined” course based on our choices: hence the coexistence of destiny/fate and free will.
Anyway, you’re welcome my man, I like talking about these sorta things. Welcome to the community!
There is technically free will. We choose each day what we want to do and how we do it. The element of destiny comes in because we all have certain predispositions and will ultimately act a certain way which leads to certain outcomes… all of our choosing. We make our choices but the choices we make are set in stone. It sounds contradictory but our decisions made out of free become part of a greater “destiny”, so to speak.
The only distinction between what you said and what I said is that I am saying there are no potentials. Potentials are experienced only in the “present” moment or experential time. Potentials fade when choices are made; they exist solely for making choices.
Think: potentials cannot exist because everything is kinetic after the first causal action. Where you are right now is a result of where you were a second ago. I can’t pop up 50 feet ahead of me because to get there a chain of cause and effects must occur.
We believe there are potentials but the choice we make is ultimately the choice we would have made. An overweight man can see “potential” paths in his life, but based on his awareness and personality, only one ultimate choice is made. He will work out or he will not. Whichever it happens to be, that was the one that was ultimately to be made because his way of thinking and circumstances at that time made him make that decision.