Woah woah slow down, big statement I’m well aware, but as big as your ego? I don’t know haha, let’s find out! Let us begin our intelligent debate here. Before you go digging in your bag of assumptions let me explain, as best as I can, what I mean by “absolutely anything that happens is meant to happen”:
Flashback. Two months ago you met this girl (let’s use the guy perspective for this example) while at work. Your job is not necessarily important, what is important is that this girl began showing up to your work place more and more often and she would go out of her way to get your attention. You didn’t do jack shit. You never saw her again. You regret it. Two months later, you’re back in the present. You wonder about alternate realities and “mistakes” and “choices” you could have made. You wonder where you’d be now if you made a move. Boom. Stop.
There is a reason why you didn’t talk to her. I am not talking divine intervention or a grand plan. I mean that something, some logic, some thought process went on in your head that led you to choose not to make a move. Whatever this thought process was, it happened and forever is it written in history. “Don’t regret anything, because at the time it was exactly what you wanted.” People tell themselves that things could have been different or that “accidents” occur… but they do not. Ever since the first causal action (Big Bang, God, magical elephants took a huge dump), everything that followed is an effect (an endless chain of effects). Let me go on.
You’re walking and you feel a splat on your arm. Bird shit. Was that chance? No it isn’t. That bird didn’t pop into existence over your head at just the right trajectory to take a shit on your ever so important arm… it had a birth however long ago and lived a life and is continuing to live its life and was already flying on a certain path long before you stepped outside today and you were taking a certain a route and it shat on you. There are certain precursors or preceding events that led that bird to be where it was to be able to even shit on you to begin with…. there are no accidents anywhere. Humans are shortsighted so they don’t see the causality behind things but everything that happens is destined (not magical destiny, I mean that it had to happen if it does happen).
Guy gets hit by car. No chance involved. That guy, doing whatever he was doing, following whatever logic that he was following was set on a course to be hit by that car.. rewind the clocks somehow and every single time he would get hit by the car. Once anyone makes a decision, that decision is cemented in eternity.
Just a thought
I really don’t like this debate – not this particular thread, but that things happen for a reason.
Having a reason means it has a meaning – without meaning there can’t be a reason you do something, or anything. This is a very abstract way of anthropomorphousizing (sp?) the universe. You are assuming the the universe has meaning, and that there is some destiny.
you could be making the claim of determinism; that the universe could only unravel in a single direction, a single pathway – but then, surely there is no reason for things happening other than the obvious.
This view would also mean there is an absence of free-will (someone define that term for me…). Something that most people won’t take kindly to, even if they hold synchronicity and meaning in the universe as true – cognitive dissonance ensues.
I find the relevance of this particular discussion minimal, as there can really be no distinction between determinism and non-determinism. In reality, they could both exist simultaneously… Something I believe may be the case.
At any rate, don’t put too much effort into thinking about this, I think it is a dead end…
my .02 $
No matter what happens, what choice we make, the potential always exists.. it is as infinite as time itself. We’re just going through it all in a linear fashion. And speaking in a physical sense, the universe is not strictly made up of tiny forms of matter, but rather is made up of a web of potentials which manifest into matter. So in the bigger picture, all potential exists forever, and all time exists forever… its just that when we go through it we do so one step at a time, otherwise we couldn’t exist in a physical world.
So if you say your life has X purpose and that you must learn Z thing, it will happen… just that every action or inaction on your part changes the path you will take to get there. There are forces outside of your own will that make things happen or allow things to happen but ultimately what you do is of your own choosing.. and by choosing so, you are fulfilling your destiny. If you had chosen to do option A as opposed to option B (for any given decision at one point in time) then your outcome would be different, but you would still be fulfilling your destiny.
Very intelligent, any unifying theory is always superior to the dividing one. I tip my hat to you and am kindly shutting my mouth. What you are saying is very reasonable and I am not going to argue against it. I just wish we all had better way of saying what we mean (something stronger than words).
You have a very nice way of coping with these painful debates. I like it! It’s like a sort of zen acceptance and dismissal of the information we presented. You are right, I must agree, this debate can only teach us so much… minimal at best but I still feel everything’s a give and take. You take out of it as much as you want.
Kudos man, very well said.
@egarim, yeah I feel like that too especially when things in life slow down you can see how things influence each other and how circumstances are meant to occur at the same time in space. YOU are probably right on the idea that things were right when you chose at that moment of time, so you can’t feel regret because it had to happen like that…BUT I don’t know sometimes you feel like things could’ve been different and you only acted out of fear and you missed chances in life, even though you know somewhere it wasn’t meant to be like that. Also when crappy things happen it is hard to believe it was meant to happen, if you don’t know the wisdom behind it, because we as human beings most of the time don’t know why things happen as they happen, that is why we feel depressed when something bad seems to happen.
Duh, why are your explanations so long?
Everything is meant to happen because the sum of all situations causes the next situation.
It’s up to everyone to give his or her own twist to the situation.
@egarim, Yes, cause and effect dictates that things will happen, but how we interpret them is a variable. We believe that people dying in an accident is a bad thing because we have empathy and we feel loss, we miss what was, but to cause and effect there is no such concept of “bad”. This “bad” is 100% our own interpretation and as that there are 100 percents of variation of our personal interpretations.
Yes, for the most part people are conditioned to respond a certain way, usually in the spirit of cultural acceptance and personal experience, but this reaction is not absolute. In that sense, a person may respond in a way that has nothing to do with the conditioning of their life, but through understanding and discipline they can deviate toward any possible reaction they focus on.
The physical world has cause and effect, and for the most part humans have predictable behavioural responses to that cause and effect, but it is not a certainty. Although most things in the cause and effect universe are seemingly dictated toward conditioning, there are outstanding factors that completely defy this “meant to happen” theory.
I personally adhere to what I call “Pre-destiny after the fact” nothing is meant to happen until it happens, at which point it was always meant to happen.
My explanations are “long” because these are topics that have been continuously debated. What you believe is what you believe alone. It is not truth. Neither are my beliefs and so I try to thoroughly explain so that those that are on the opposing extreme can better understand.
Get it? I don’t just write one sentence and expect people to get what I mean or to give proper feedback. If you’re gonna make a claim you gotta back it up.
That is all.
Pre-destined after the fact just about sums up my beliefs. I keep saying to everyone that I believe that free-will and destiny coexist but nobody registers that thought. It exists because we can freely choose what happens but after it does it was destiny.
Thank you for your thoughts, always a pleasure.
The universe is random and chaotic. With that logic, we can justify that everything happens for a reason. The amount of control we have on our lives is essentially an illusion; there is an infinite number of energies ready to interact with us and each other at any moment. Thus, the idea that parallel universes exist for everything that did not happen in this or any other universe explains this phenomenon (though it is hardly a phenomenon if it is reality…)
One finite thing we can control while we live is the perspective with which we receive our fate, and with that being said, we can control our happiness. AKA, if we accept what happens to us with an open mind instead of fighting against a force we will never win against (the universe), we will experience the most happiness we possibly can. Simply put: enjoy the ride. :)
I don’t agree, I see a contradiction, when you say something is destined, it mean it was “going to happen” even from the point of 50 years before it happened, which nulls freewill. The future isn’t written on stone at all, it’s colored by our freewill and the choices we decide to make. Yes I believe in determinism, but I also believe it can co-exist with freewill.
Each being is unique with their freewill and would choose different routes of going about their predestined circumstances. Not every single conscious being that’s born in the universe is going to be bad given if they were given the same predetermined fucked up parents, they have a high chance being negative, but it’s not absolute they would all become negative. Every being is unique in going about there thoughts and freewill.
I seriously hope I explained the above paragraph right.
Now if you shot a bullet, it’s damn near destined that it will make it 5 ft in a point of space/time, the odds of it not making it 5ft in a point of space/time is probably (Insert Gigantic number) to 1. Which mean a space rock came from space at lightning speeds and hit the bullet off course causing it to not make it to that 5ft point of space/time it was suppose to go.
@egarim, Great post, I enjoyed the fact that you explained yourself thoroughly in order to tie any loose ends. The last thing you want is for people to misunderstand you, especially when your dealing with themes that are already so difficult to explain in words. I agree totally with what you have wrtten. I have few of my own examples just to see what you have to say about it:
– Say Bill is a keen guitarist. He has always dreamt of playing guitar professionally but made a decision years ago that the music business is tough and should stick to studying science. Say one day he goes to a concert and comes home so alive and high on inspiration that he decides he should AT LEAST continue playing guitar on the side and maybe refine his skills. He decides to finally take guitar lessons to see what a professional has to say about his skills. He can only afford a cheap ass music school. There are 7 guitar teachers there. He ends up with Tom. Tom is a supurb guitar teacher, the only reason why he is stuck in this shit music school is because he is very young and just commenced teaching professionally. Tom and Bill get on like a house on fire. From the beggining, Tom tells Bill, ‘your guitar playing is very rusty but you have something special and we can work on that.’ As time goes by Tom connects Bill with other guitarists, sound engineers, producers etc. By the end of the year Bill is part of band whose album recieves high reviews and they are on their way to success.
-Now It was Bill’s decision to take guitar lessons that led to him to a guitar teacher
-But what lead him to Tom (in particular)?? The other teachers were average teachers with no connections in the industry. How is it that the teacher that got randomly chosen for him, was an incrediable teacher with connections AND was someone who Bill got a long with exceptionallly well (meaning he went out of his way to help Bill shine). Bills actions did not lead to meeting the person who changed his life forever. Of course after Bill meets Tom its Bills hard work and dedication that led to his success. But lets not skip a step. The moment where Tom and Bill meet – the most crucial/life changing moment. Who is to ‘thank’ for that (so to speak).
-How does cause and effect fit here?
Rage is like a fire that wishes to burn, Flow is like water that wishes to run it’s course to discover what lies at the end of the river.
Haha, as simple as I can make it. I understand that simplicity is genius, I respect much of Einstein’s philosophy and work. But when attempting to explain my entire life philosophy, I am trying to put across more than a one-liner or a mantra.
Thank you though, for your thoughts.
Good example, and here’s my take: my idea and understanding of fate is that there is no unified, consciousness that guides fate’s hand. Bill meets Tom out of what may seem like an improbable chance… but how did he “end up with him”? See, ultimately, we make decisions that are the optimal decisions at the time. The fact that he “ended up” with Tom is probably what Bill wanted even if didn’t know what he was getting into. A choice had to be made, and that choice is fated (fate and destiny is like a string of most probable and optimal choices; it’s “fated” because that is what ultimately happened).
Hope that made some sense haha. I can’t explain it any better… it’s kind of difficult.
I also believe in the coexistence of free-will and fate, but I think you are misunderstanding my main points. Fate and destiny, in this sense, is almost entirely retrospective. This is due to the nature of free will: we are like at the end of time as it is expanding, the future is yet to be written, but time is like an arrow, it builds off of the past and each moment is a reaction of the moment before it.
I can’t “skip scenes” in this sense, I can’t magically appear in France I have to take logical steps to get there. There is the cause and effects that lead to an occurrence. In this sense, all decisions and happenings are “predetermined”, my next decision is based on my current way of thinking, but my current way of thinking is based on how I thought moments before, and so on and so on. Everything after the first cause, everything is an effect of an effect. It is endless, and if we were omniscient we could see the chain… but we are not and so we can’t. The future remains to be “written”.
Good thoughts, thank you.
“my next decision is based on my current way of thinking, but my current way of thinking is based on how I thought moments before, and so on and so on.”
I don’t think this is a effective point, People follow their way of thinking almost unconsciously/naturally, but they can so choose to deviate from their current way of thinking if they put conscious effort into it and null their feelings. With freewill a Murderer still has the potential to stop himself in a instance from his bloodlust of harming someone, he just choose not to because he want to fulfill his desires/way of thinking more then anything.
Omniscience is the thing that separate us. I don’t believe at all that omniscient grants the ability to foresee potential because potential is not of yet and doesn’t exist until something cause the potential. When you imply an omniscient seeing the chain events in the future that’s when we split in beliefs because to me it implies the future was already determined, and you’re just feeling in the exact prints of an already fixed/determined reality. Which shoots down freewill.
I believe a god can be omniscient in a sense that it’s aware of everything that’s transpiring in this universe, but foreseeing potential that hasn’t happened I don’t believe. Maybe I’m still understanding you wrong and forgive me for this if I am.
First of all, I wanna say that I admire your respectfulness in this discussion. Too often people resort to anger and let their emotions consume them.
“I don’t believe at all that omniscient grants the ability to foresee potential because potential is not of yet and doesn’t exist until something cause the potential.”
I understand you completely. The issue here is that I am having trouble helping you understand my precise view on “destiny” in relation to free-will: there are infinite potentials at every moment by only one kinetic choice, per say. That choice is the fated one. If there is 1000 different flavors of ice cream for me to choose from, ultimately I have to pick one (or some combination), but that decision that I ultimately make is “one” decision, killing all potentials. So in a way, everything that happens is a chain of single choices and dead potentials… so instead of a tree of possibilities, it is like the course of everything runs along one root or branch (a branch that can technically be seen by an all-knowing being).
I don’t know, just my thoughts man. Good stuff! haha
No need for apologies, I understand completely. I jumped to conclusions about you as well, something that I shouldn’t have done. And thank you, I tried to be succinct.
Always restores my hope in myself and people when misunderstandings are resolved. Conflict leaves a bad taste in all our mouths, there is enough intolerance and hatred in this world.