Seriously…I love this site, and the community…But I wish there were more people here who believe that things like LSD, MDMA, Ayahuasca, THC, ect ect (endless list I swear) are not the only paths, (or for that matter, the most spiritually rewarding paths) to a spiritual enlightenment. Using foreign substances to simulate spiritual learning can only bring you so far, eventually you plateau (if you dont burn out first). I kind of equate it to Americans love affair with fast food, wanting instant gratification with no work put in. Maybe our consumer culture of NOW NOW NOW is to blame…But you can not rush something like that if you want to make any real change. Your own self alone has everything you need to transcend this realm. This is not meant to be an attack, just my opinion. I am not some shut in prude, and I used to be really into shrooms back in the day. Time, learning, and loss kind of put it into perspective for me. Although I would most definitely not say I am ‘enlightened’, I can say that I can feel my connection with the Is strengthen everyday, and am constantly learning something new. Don’t sell yourselves short, enlightenment is accessible to anyone, regardless of what their local dealer has in stock… Does anyone else feel the same way?
Are there any people here who think these are the only paths? I am not so sure. And everyone who think they can get enlightened after one psychedelic experience is extremely deluded. As with any path, insights you get need integration and nourishment. What happens after the realisation, either ‘externally’ or ‘internally’ facilitated, is what matters most. I don’t know anyone who uses psychedelics in a serious manner believes otherwise.
For some these medicines help, for some they are just a distraction. But the same goes for meditation, yoga etc. Ever heard of spiritual bypassing? If you try to depict other wisdom paths as using ‘foreign’ substances or that ‘your own self’ is somehow more pure, then you fall in the same trap in my opinion. (We are, as buddhists say, ‘co-dependent arising’, so any thing as a true self, or something as foreign, is based on the illusion of separation.)
Personally, I feel they can be complementary. Meditation and yoga helps me with integration (used with intent), while psychedelics (also used with intent in a sacred setting) show me how much I have yet to learn, and will heal me from things I perhaps couldn’t have healed from without them. I like this talk a lot, one I submitted a while ago. What do you think of it?
I so agree with you. Plant medicines introduced me to the spiritual side of myself, but now I am doing the real work without them. The kind where I have to face my own dark side without anything covering my feelings. There are no shortcuts to this, and I feel to do this work, one must be completely naked and vulnerable without anything altering our senses. Though, I really do agree with Martijn as well. Medicines have showed me the doorway and have helped me heal, too. Anything, can be used as a distraction or a crutch.
Ultimate people have to learn on their own what’s right and what’s wrong for them. Even if you end up just becoming a deluded escapist by using psychedelics all the time, if you eventually figure this out, then the psychedelics still produced a positive effect for you because you became more aware.
Yes, I totally agree with you. Particularly the ‘wearing off’ process after the event. Although the experience is no less profound, maybe even more intense, I would prefer to approach something like this. with the potential for such incredible life-changing possibilities, with a clear, ‘natural’ mind. I wouldn’t use pain medication during childbirth for this same reason (the main thing I noticed was an ongoing feeling of bliss from the natural painkillers that kicked in and an increased sense of bonding with my baby that others claimed not to feel until later on). I also went on to have twins without pain meds and would recommend childbirth without drugs if you can possibly go that route. Also, I wish to approach my own death with a clear and undrugged mind. But I’m just giving an opinion there is no way I am judging anybody’s route to Enlightenment. I don’t care how you get there, just get there if you can! (cue for a song surely?) xxxxx
I completely agree with the fact that their are many different paths to enlightenment and self discovery. I’ve had awakenings sober as well as on substances. It depends on what you surround yourself with, what you choose to educate yourself in, how you treat yourself / other people, and what type of religion you’re involved in. There is no wrong, right or specific way to get to that point.
There is truth in your words.. but remember, those who seek will find.
Most people who feel like they need some sort of spiritual enlightenment experience resort to these ‘drugs’ because its the most commonly known ‘first step’.. then some believe its the only way, others dont. But they also dont know what WOULD be the way..
So what is the way? Drugs or no drugs?
The entire conversation is incorrect.
Like he said, he who seeks will find
Enlightenment is happening. Help it or not. Search for it or not, it is a natural occurence in every human beings life. Each in their own time.
Think of all he vegetation in all the world. Not all of it grows and blooms at the same time. Many factors are involved. Seasons, weather, location, hemispheres, etc.. But the flowers grow and the trees surely give fruit.
Same with us. All of us exist inside of love.
All of us will be enlightened with the eternal light of love, each in our own time..
My opinion is this:
.. Everything that u seek will be revealed when u are here, doing nothing, making no effort, like a tree moving in the wind. Growing.
Interesting question that keeps me busy for some years now. I have been bouncing from one side to the other and I came to the conclusion that I actually don’t have an answer to this question.
The most recent thought I had about this is in line with the point in life I currently am and the lessons life is teaching me. This idea has as a base the fact that I believe that we are living in order to live, grow and develop. That everything can be and is a learning opportunity. That our level of consciousness is fundamentally different from other species on our planet. That all challenges in life make us grow.
I believe the human race is currently (and maybe has been in the past too) at a point where we are in a major transition period between one dimension (let’s say 3D) and another one (let’s say 5D?). I won’t get into more details as that is another subject field, so let me get back on topic.
As I said earlier, I believe that all challenges in life make us grow. Everything which we find difficult is an opportunity to learn. Everything that makes us suffer is an opportunity for growth. Everything that hurts, is an opportunity for development.
Now I have asked myself. Why has the Universe created addictive substances on our Planet? What is their purposes? Why are they addictive? Sidenote: these things I call addictive substances, can be a metaphor for intangible addictions too.
Here is my interesting observation. The reason why they are addictive, is where the challenge and opportunity for growth lies. The person who can use an addictive substance wisely, without getting lost into its addiction, is the one who can Master it and control herself. The one who gets lost into the addiction, loses himself and gets onto a path of destruction. This is the key issue for me.
Why are these substances addictive? Why can one person control it and the other not? I have faced in my life that every experience which has been painful, difficult and full of sorrow, has been the experience of which I have (or could have) learned the most. Every time I had to force myself to push through something difficult, was the time that brought me further on my spiritual and personal journey. Every loss (whether physical or mental) has brought me the birth of something new.
Now why would this theory not apply to e.g. Psychedelics? Are these substances maybe gateways to other dimensions? Only for those people who can truly Master and understand them, not getting lost to their addictive nature?
If a creature living in 2D does not know, and can maybe never know, about 3D and 2D seems to be definite for them, would the same not apply for us? Simply because we cannot experience other dimensions, does it mean that they don’t exist? A truly wise person questions everything in my opinion and does not hold on to what appears to be the truth. One could argue that the ultimate truth is objective and does not depend on ones perception. Yes, I agree, there are some ultimate truths, but can I know them? Can I be so certain of it? Anyway, I am getting off topic again.
To conclude: I believe, just like you Topic Starter, that one needs to be able to live ones own life to the full potential without the help of anything. Freedom comes from within, no external circumstances should be influencing this. However, just as therapy has helped me to find certain answers, so have certain psychedelic substances. Does it mean that I have to be in therapy 24/7 or have to be under influence 24/7? No, most certainly not! But does it mean that I should never make use of any help that I can get/find in my life, which could potentially lead me further and make me grow? Most certainly not! As long as I can have a certain amount of control over what is happening to me, I believe there is nothing wrong in getting help. I believe that the sum is more than the addition of the individuals. I believe that the human race could grow so much faster and so much more, if only we would all cooperate. Not only would be all benefit on an individual level, but as a race as well.
i really want to try psychedelics but im not trying yet because i’ve thought that i want to mmm “get somewhere first” or “do something first” or whatever, i dont know how to explain it but im meditating and thinking and changing what i dont like, i know i could do it faster but i “want” or have, to keep doing some things too, i cant stop studying and go walking wherever i get with 10 dolars and some food, at least yet. And so, i’m meditating as i can, reading and looking some things. Also i’ve been lucky and found this place, where not only i can read and learn new cool stuff, but i can see there are lot of people who share lot of things with me, or doesn’t share so many but have something cool. So i insist, yep, i wanna try lsd, ayahuasca, etc. but not yet, even though i smoke a joint once in a while, but not even mdma yet. And it is not fear, i think i have information enough and i’m really looking forward to, but im not impatient neither.
All of those drugs are like the amusement park of spirituality.
Only an advanced shaman could use them to gain real true growth and wisdom.
And the shaman is at a lower level than those who do not need to take such substances.
I would be happy to discuss a sober path to enlightenment with you. PM me if you desire.
Some are Roses,
Some are Thorns,
I think its fair to say that being able to access the higher self without the use of foreign substances requires a higher spiritual level than one who can only access it with help from the without.
Some are Roses,
Some are Thorns,
I don’t think that’s the case, the experience on psychedelics and that while sober isn’t going to be the same. You are comparing apples and oranges. There are multiple paths to enlightenment, but enlightenment isn’t a single point. I’ve read somewhere that a group of buddhist monks from Tibet were given LSD and became frantic, and couldn’t handle the experience. Those who understand drugs are different than those who don’t.
The perfect mind needs nothing external.
If you give a Buddhist Monk LSD of course they will become frantic.
You would be greatly disturbing the delicate energy balance they have built over numerous lifetimes.
If you don’t allow a Shaman access to his ally, what else does he got?
A super-pumped 6th and 7th chakra does not equate to high spiritual level.
Some are Roses,
Some are Thorns,
I actually really dislike this purist view of spirituality – that everything that is ‘natural’ is somehow good, and every ‘substance’ is somehow foreign and bad. If you read the stories of the great sages of Tibet, you can easily tell all the psychedelic influences they have had. Shabkar for instance, just ate nettle soup for weeks which caused him all kinds of visions of flying and meeting his guru while being separated by 100’s of miles. You can also find many instances of Buddhists texts and scriptures where it is alluded to try mushrooms and cannabis. There are quite some Buddhism teachers that are positive towards psychedelics and have incorporated them. Just as there are teachers that feel it can disturb the subtle body.
Likewise, the shaman goes into nature and fasts for weeks, just contemplating the relationships between him, the community and the non-human-Other. They have a deeply contemplative belief system. To even talk about spiritual levels indicates to me a tremendous lack of respect and insight. To play with the idea that you can ever live without anything external is an ideological and destructive myth. The idea that there is some purist buddhist path really shows a lack of understanding of the diversity of buddhism, their paths, myths and differences.
Nobody does know for sure.
But, then again there isn’t one account I know of that suggests that either did use such things.
And the guy that wrote that is convinced the Earth is flat.
I wouldn’t say I’m 100% a naturalist. I think drugs have their place in our lives and especially in our quests for spiritual growth.
They can open the door, but eventually we have to get the point where we can walk through that door without them.
And they reached a certain place, and level, of enlightenment. They would have reached another place had they taken psychedelics. All of your sages used air, water, proteins, various organisms and foods to reach their enlightenment. They used the sun, and conversations – they used many “external” factors to become enlightened. Their own ‘natural’ neural transmitters are not some universal, objectively ‘right’ compound for the brain to use, simply because the brain does not synthesize psilocybin, does not mean it is ‘wrong’ to use it. The purist ideology that only ‘natural’ things are good, and that nothing ‘external’ should be used to reach enlightenment is a fallacy – you are intimately connected to everything around you and to suggest that things are external from yourself, is itself, a detachment from enlightenment.
Well I’m not a naturalist and even if I was I wouldn’t have the right to attack a Shaman who’s main practice is being one with nature and using natural substances to unlock the greater powers of their mind.
Sex is natural too and can be used to our benefit, but the misuse and overuse of sex is one of the biggest limitations the average person comes up against in the pursuit of higher things.
If I could sum up the basic point it would be that there is too much emphasis on the externals, drugs, sex, money, exercise regimes, rituals, symbols and not enough emphasis on the fact that you are already complete without these things, you need none of them to achieve anything.
The highest of the high spiritual masters walked with this truth which is why as far as anyone can tell they did not need anything external.
Relating to an ally is a step along the Path, just like relating to a woman or a man or an animal or a business or an art or a science are steps along the Path. The one’s who have completed the Path all reached the point where they no longer needed to relate to anything but God, now all I’m trying to say is that is the highest level.
I’m not there, you’re not there, but if we’re going upwards, that’s where we should be looking.
This reminds of a video I watched where a yogi in india was given a huge amount of LSD to see what happened to him. Nothing happened to him, but he had fun messing with the american who gave it to him lol. Judging another’s path only shows that we still need work on our self. We are all different, and our paths also differ. Who are we to say what is perfect?
The moment any human becomes perfect, we are instantly gone from this plane. Some masters have been known to keep certain impurities in order to stay on the physical plane to teach the true students in the world. Truth is stranger than fiction.
Don’t take what I say in the wrong way. I have had many enlightening experiences in a pure state and I agree with you. My best experiences were pure one’s. But there were many that I have had that were induced also, and those added to my path just as well as the others did in my book of life.
Any individual story in history may be BS.
But when there is a pattern across history, to suggest that somehow a specific element in the lives of all of our most advanced people is suppressed is verging on conspiracy theory.
It’s actually a step beyond that because I’m not only referring to conventional history, I’m talking about look at any account of the lives of these people and drug use is at a minimal.
One thing you’ve got to consider though is that the further back you go, the less linearized our minds were, so there was less need for substances to escape the prison our modern world creates.
If we take Steve Jobs for example, who I think we can agree is one of the most spiritual advanced people in recent history. We know drugs played a huge role in his formative years and he is a big advocate of experimental drug use.
But, did he keep going back to it? Did he need it to think of and execute the invention of the iPhone or his work at Pixar? Can someone find evidence of that?
Steve Jobs one of ‘the most spiritual advanced people’? Who cares? Don’t appeal to these ‘authority’ figures. What can they possible say about our own lives? Find your own truth – don’t emulate an incomplete one from someone else.
And what do you think about artists like van Gogh, the Beatles, Jim Morrison, Ian Curtis etc. etc. who have been using substances when creating their most creative pieces of art?
What about ancient cultures like the Mayas who have been using substances (plants) during their highly spiritual ceremonies?
What about Christians in Medieval times who have been using mixtures of beer and (magic) mushrooms? What about native south american tribes who use Ayahuasca for personal and spiritual growth?
When there is a pattern across history it merely means that the people who are currently in power have agreed to present history in a way to control the now in the way it pleases them.
There is already so much misinformation about very recent history like WOII, where facts have been turned into the advantage of superpowers.
If 1000 sheep repeat what 1 sheep has said, does it make it valid only because of the high number of sheep predicting what one sheep has said?
As I said, drugs have their place.
I’m not condemning drugs as something to be totally avoided.
Ken Kesey said it best: “once you’ve been through that door you can’t keep going through it over and over again” (Electric Kool Aid Acid Test ch 3).
I don’t think this is a very controversial or extreme statement and I’m not sure why its arousing such hostility.
The idea is simple there are two possibilities here:
A) Needing an ally to unlock the greater potential of your mind
B) Not needing an ally to unlock the greater potential of your mind
There’s no shame in needing one or wanting one, but where is the debate in asserting that Human B is on a higher level than Human A.
To call anyone spiritually perfect is alarming to me. We are humans. Jesus lied, Jesus may have even killed. We don’t even know who Buddha is. They are history, and as with all stories told throughout time, we cannot know anything told to us for certain. Taking the bible at face value is foolish, thus idolizing those within is a bit foolish too.
This is a good point, but as I said among any story of these two figures even among occult and secret doctrines you don’t find much referencing to drug use.
I can’t say either figure didn’t use drugs at one time or even for an extended period of time, but it seems reasonable to assert that they were not dependent on drugs to access their higher powers (if you believe any of that) as a Shaman would be.
Let me repeat again just so we’re clear here.
I’m not condemning drugs as things that can have no benefit to spiritual growth.
I’m saying that at a certain level one outgrows their relationship with them.
How can you be so sure one ‘outgrows’ their relationship with them? How can you be sure it is not a gateway to another (higher) dimension?
I used to think like you and even a year ago I would agree with you. I am not saying that ‘drugs’ are a way for spiritual growth, I am just open to the possibility. I am doubting both sides and I am believing both sides at the same time. I don’t know the answer to the question, hence I don’t want to conclude something definite.
Drugs absolutely are a gateway to a different dimension.
Sometimes that dimension may be a higher dimension, but I’m in no position to say if that is absolutely true.
I do think drugs are part of the path towards spiritual growth.
I think most people consuming them in our world aren’t ready for that step, and the complications this creates are the main reason drugs have a bad reputation.
However after a period of time properly relating to drugs, one graduates from needing them. My guess is this process occurs over several lifetimes.
The OP made several very good observations, and I agree with his sentiment. The truth is to the untrained Shaman those drugs are more or less an amusement park. To the Shaman they are vital to the path of spiritual growth. To the highest master they are the equivalent of someone in the year 2015 needing cassette player for their music.
I don’t think anybody here thinks psychedelics are the only path, it’s just that the path to enlightenment is a path of expanding your awareness so naturally people are going to want to try artificial ways to do this. Especially if those ways can give them a goal to shoot for. Everybody has to find their own path and if psychedelics help them then that’s good them, if not well that’s still good too. What’s really important though is the intention behind the psychedelic use. For me personally, I’ve cut back my cannabis use to around once a month because I get into the habit of just smoking all the time because it feels good and that isn’t beneficial at all. Whereas with LSD I do it even more infrequently as sort of a guide post, something to show me that I’m on the right track but it also shows me the areas that I need to improve in and gives me some direction.
“The right amount…of the right thing…at the right time…can produce enlightenment” What we think we need on our path to the truth is a personal thing in my opinion. Many have found truth through substances, and many have found the same through purification. The means will never be the matter, but only where the means end (when it arrives at the truth of our selves). If I find this through purification, then my knowledge gained from that awareness will tell me not to judge the path others need for their journey to the same actuality. And it works the other way also. If I can reach an enlightened state of mind by using a sort of substance, to tell another that this is the only way to this state would be contrary to the would be actuality of the oneness achieved. By searching deep inside ourselves, we will discover what we truly need for this if we don’t get in the way of ourselves. Many times it becomes a bit of both purification and substance. For some it shall only be one or the other. We must never judge another person because his name for God may be a different one than ours is, since all is God in the end.
God is a process, not what we are told after all.