Artists and non-artists alike…what do you think about this advice…

Kidd (@kidd) 8 years, 9 months ago

So I was checking my dashboard on Tumblr and I came across this, bits and snippets from “How to Draw Books” about how to draw women:

http://24.media.tumblr.com/9927ffae0e462e736cc141ad6f1622f6/tumblr_miekua2FXy1r34y4ho1_1280.png

What do you think about this?

Personally, I’m a little annoyed that books made by supposedly great artists are telling budding artists to “Fuck diversity–you just want people to look pretty.” Is this what we want in art? I mean, it is art so some say it should be appealing eyes, but..why?

February 24, 2013 at 10:38 am
Psychonaut (133) (@psychonaut) 8 years, 9 months ago ago

@kidd, I really do hope you’re not taking this snippet seriously. We live in a different era, this ‘artist’ is backward to our time.

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Kidd (1,059) (@kidd) 8 years, 9 months ago ago

@psychonaut, Well of course not and of course.

But these are out of books instructing people how to draw. People are picking these up and learning this, thinking it’s for the better.

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Suereyya (164) (@drapetomania) 8 years, 9 months ago ago

@kidd,

I sort of agree with @psychonaut, . And this is just really funny to me, in a way :).
This artist’s instructions do seem outdated. On the other hand, let’s face it; this is exactly how most people of our society would describe an attractive looking woman. Most likely because they have been taught to think so, though…

But I have faith in humanity and will say that every being with at least a bit of common sense, will not agree that only women who look that way are beautiful (Like you just proved). It’s silly to think that there is a “right” way to draw women. Or anyone, for that matter.

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PeaceRiot (178) (@peaceriot) 8 years, 9 months ago ago

@kidd, From somebody who is very emotionally connected to art but does not draw..Just appreciates.

If you want to draw the best woman that you can. Draw her from your heart. Treat her like the manifestation (womanifestation) of your mind and do everything in your power to make her come to life and feel.

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ASHES (7) (@sinawae) 8 years, 9 months ago ago

@kidd, Ugh, I find this extremely annoying but not surprising. And I knew right away it was for comic book drawing LOL. I actually think how-to-draw books are totally bogus. They must make a ton of cash cause I see them on the book shelves, and usually the art inside is SUPER shitty… I don’t know how these people get published. As an artist and somebody who way back when got accepted into the Joe Kubert School and Pratt (though ended up staying in Colorado :P), people are looking diversity, creativity, REALISM, and technique in a portfolio, not how well you can draw some cookie cutter pervington idea of a woman. I understand it- Jim Lee’s X-Men art got me started in the comic booking direction but I realized there were all KINDS of amazing comic styles out there. That sexy superhero shit can get really boring after a while.. so I say BOO to ‘how-to’ books and HUZZAH with teachers, peers, and life drawing! See Neil Gaiman’s SANDMAN (various artists) or Katsuhiro Otomo’s AKIRA, or ANYTHING by Ikegami Ryoichi- the man can draw any type person whichever race creed or size amazingly which makes for kick ass sequential art. Am I ranting? Gah! Sorry..

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Kidd (1,059) (@kidd) 8 years, 9 months ago ago

@drapetomania, I agree completely! :)

@peaceriot, Ah-ha, no worries. I do draw women just like that. My latest drawing broke every single one of those rules and she’s still beautiful.

@sinawae, Haha, it’s perfectly cool! I agree–“how to draw” books are generally pretty shitty. The best teacher is life, real references… not exaggerated cartoons. And it’s awesome that you got accepted into those schools. :D Art is not an easy thing to master.

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Dan (890) (@danfontaine) 8 years, 9 months ago ago

@kidd, I think this is genius but I’m creative enough to draw attractive women of any shape I fucking want to.
Now I want to draw women. And I think I will. I’ll show you guys.

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Kidd (1,059) (@kidd) 8 years, 9 months ago ago

@danfontaine, Oh, okay :D Haha, can’t wait to see!

Why do you find it genius? It’s great advice if you’re drawing a character about sex appeal, but to apply it all the time…

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Suereyya (164) (@drapetomania) 8 years, 9 months ago ago

@danfontaine, Do it.

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PeaceRiot (178) (@peaceriot) 8 years, 9 months ago ago

@kidd, I’d like to see.

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PeaceRiot (178) (@peaceriot) 8 years, 9 months ago ago

@danfontaine, I have to see. lol

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Manimal (2,998) (@manimal) 8 years, 9 months ago ago

@kidd, Umm, you’re reading too much into it. It’s art, drawing, some of it even mentions comics. It’s supposed to be that way, more or less. Not everything has a message.

Super-defined muscles on women looks WEIRD, it doesn’t look like a woman. Unless she’s on steroids and working out super hard, a woman doesn’t get chiselled like that.
And when you’re dealing with simplistic drawings (such as comics) details are always exaggerated, one line makes a world of difference, there is no subtlety when working only with black and white.

Take a look at a female olympic sprinter. Very strong build, yes, but not chiselled, and still attractive. These women are athletic, work out very hard, and a lot of them use peds. Still, no hypervascularity, not very chiseled muscles.

The hips and shoulders thing, well that’s just how it looks. Thin waist, that’s how humans look when they’re in decent shape. Women generally have small and rounded noses, that don’t make that contour from a 3/4 angle.
Women DO have a higher body fat level, it’s natural, it’s how it’s supposed to be.

And I can’t remember ever seeing a woman with bulky traps.
Women are sleek-looking by nature, with very few exceptions.

The badder she is, the sexier she should look. That’s a classic trick, sexiness adds more impact to the badness. This applies to men as well. Check out some comics or movies and you’ll see this phenomenon manifest in the vast majority of them.

The diversity you speak of isn’t real. When you draw a woman, you want people to see right away “that’s a woman” that’s how art works. Positive exaggeration helps, but is not necessary. However, drawing something that doesn’t look like a woman and trying to pass it off as a woman will only make people think you’re a poor artist or something.

There’s plenty of fat women in art and comics, there’s plenty of muscular women in art and comic. The key thing being that they look realistic and womanly, they don’t look like men with a few feminine traits.

At the end of the day, this is about visual art. People want to look at something that looks good and well-drawn, not something that just looks weird.
And yknow, art and comics is generally a way to paint nice images and scenarios, not dull stuff that says nothing. What’s the point of drawing a stale replica of something that isn’t appealing/interesting even in the real world?

And you know what? Your art is your choice. Draw what YOU want, and let others draw what THEY want. These people clearly like drawing pretty ladies, what’s so bad about that? If you don’t like that, don’t draw that, draw something else.

Draw what you want, instead of complaining about people drawing things you don’t wanna make.
You don’t see anyone compiling your points and trash-talking them, do you?

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Kidd (1,059) (@kidd) 8 years, 9 months ago ago

@peaceriot, Did you mean to tag @danfontaine? haha

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Kidd (1,059) (@kidd) 8 years, 9 months ago ago

@manimal, Well I don’t have a problem with people drawing people how they want. Even I doodle very feminine women most of time. But..the diversity DOES exist.

By following those “rules,” you apparently get stuff like this:

View post on imgur.com

Since when do ALL women look like that, is my question.

And I’m not saying we should draw women like body builders either. I understand we want things that are pleasing to the eye in art…but the art should add to the personality of a character. What if I wanted to portray a masculine woman? Should I stick to those rules? Obviously not, but there is such an emphasize on them that it almost seems wrong to stray.

Diversity IS there. I know women of all different body types and shapes. That’s reality. I happen to like comic books and drawings and anything where reality is mimicked. Not everyone looks like a super model, but I think everyone is beautiful despite. That’s important to me, is all.

I don’t disagree that women should look like women, lol. But there are many different types of women and, therefore, there are many different looks for women. People don’t seem to grasp that.

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Kidd (1,059) (@kidd) 8 years, 9 months ago ago

@manimal, As for a picture that shows diversity, this is what I’m talking about:

http://kelleybean86.deviantart.com/art/Draw-Female-Body-Types-346195712

THAT is awesome. That is realistic. The diversity is in the body types, not the clothes or hair. And it’s still feminine.

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Barkie (21) (@bakra) 8 years, 9 months ago ago

this is obviously a book on how to draw classic american cartoon stuff, it has nothing to do with art. (not denying that cartoons are art)
Its just a one sided way of drawing. if you want to learn to draw diffrent kind of body types i suggest you look into the word of R Crumb
http://albertbaronian.com/assets/0000/3672/2000_CRUMB0346-200b_zoom.jpg

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Manimal (2,998) (@manimal) 8 years, 9 months ago ago

@kidd, The diversity thing is not what feminists try to make it into. Most women look like typical women, then there are some exceptions, but these are a small minority.

Where did it ever say ALL women look like that? It’s 6 examples. Just 6, there’s no way to represent all different kinds with 6 examples. They’re just general archetypes. And they are a diverse bunch.

That fighter example is good, except for the boobs, they’re too big. Other than that it’s pretty realistic. Very masculine looking too, if you just made the arms a bit bigger and removed the breasts it would look like a typical male comic book hero. Seriously.

You’d be surprised at how subtle the differences between two different looks are, especially in simplistic drawing. Just make some of them shorter, slightly change the proportions a bit and you’ll have all the diversity you could dream of.

The thing that really looks off about these examples is their faces, they look too model-like. Faces make a huge difference.

And of course, the tits. Comics are notorious for uncalled-for big tits, where they don’t fit at all. Just make em smaller and it will look a lot less weird.
They all have wide hips as well, on the two ladies on the bottom left it looks very weird, but again we’re dealing with simplified drawings where this kind of stuff helps deliver the message. You could just narrow those a bit (they’re not THAT exaggerated) and it’ll look better and more real.

Most of the “diversity” we hear so much about is just cases of shitty health, combined with personal details. It’s not really about different types of bodies (there are only a few different types and they’re not that different) but what people do with them.
And the kind of shit today’s people do to their bodies is not what a comic hero does, keep that in mind.

Remember, these are mostly depictions of different HERO types, prime examples, they’re supposed to look great and be great and have it all. That’s what we like.
They’re not average peons.

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Manimal (2,998) (@manimal) 8 years, 9 months ago ago

@kidd, As for your second example, that’s SITUATIONAL “diversity.” They’re all pretty much the same body type, just different ages, heights and body fat levels. Hell, most of the difference in some of those is from the pose/posture.

And most of them look like the ones in your previous “bad” example. Just a bit shorter, without hi-heels, and in different poses.

Also, lol at the word plus-sized. That’s the most ridiculous word I’ve heard in a very long time.

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Afgoo (23) (@afgoo) 8 years, 9 months ago ago

I’d assume that the comic book crowd male or female would rather an attractive main character to lust after or identify with. As a non-artist I don’t declare any specifications for a female in a drawing other than that she fits in. If its that drawing with the old couple on the farm, I want a plain, tired looking woman. If it is a woman standing under a waterfall I’d rather her be pretty. Also, it depends even with the hypothetical waterfall picture the goal of the painting and the effect the girl should create.

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Kidd (1,059) (@kidd) 8 years, 9 months ago ago

@manimal, “Remember, these are mostly depictions of different HERO types, prime examples, they’re supposed to look great and be great and have it all. That’s what we like.
They’re not average peons.”

That’s true and I can agree with that… Entertainment should please the eyes.

Overall my problem is just that it’s hard to find diversity in characters–even with males. I prefer it even when it’s–as you said–subtle. It’s more realistic. I’m not saying people are wrong to omit diversity; I just prefer seeing it. It’s awesome, in my opinion. It’s really awesome.

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Kidd (1,059) (@kidd) 8 years, 9 months ago ago

@manimal, If you think they all look the same, then you need to get your eyes checked, hahaha

“They’re all pretty much the same body type, just different ages, heights and body fat levels.”

And that’s exactly why I like it. Can you imagine taking a different body type and applying the situations? You’ll have even more differences.

“And most of them look like the ones in your previous ‘bad’ example. Just a bit shorter, without hi-heels, and in different poses.”

Hahaha, I..don’t think so. Just like you said, the differences are subtle but they’re definitely there.

“Also, lol at the word plus-sized.”

I’ll never understand it either, lol. But hey, women look like that.

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Kidd (1,059) (@kidd) 8 years, 9 months ago ago

@afgoo, You’re pretty much right. The appearance of a character attributes to personality–especially with comic books. And a lot of artists are good at showing different personalities through appearance. Some..not so much, but you probably already know that

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PeaceRiot (178) (@peaceriot) 8 years, 9 months ago ago

@kidd, Yes, I did mean to tag him. I also meant to tag you foo! Where’s that work! ;]

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Kidd (1,059) (@kidd) 8 years, 9 months ago ago

@peaceriot, Oh, haha! Well, I’m a little shy about my art especially since it’s mediocre at best. If you want, I can PM it to you though

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PeaceRiot (178) (@peaceriot) 8 years, 9 months ago ago

@kidd, please do.

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