Atheists probably believe in God

 Pretzilstix (@Pretzilstix)8 years, 2 months ago

I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately. Granted there are a lot of ways to define “God”, but they all tend to share the theme of being the creator of the universe. If this is what God is, wouldn’t whatever created the universe be considered “God”? Playing around with a few theories, the creator of the universe could be: A physical being, a spirit, a thought, the big bang, yourself, humans creating a paradox, another universe, FSM, ect…

That being said, atheists simply don’t believe in a divine being, by definition. A divine being is said to be “God-like”. God is the creator of the universe, not necessarily a spirit or physical being. It is my understanding that an atheist has a theory of how the universe was created, while an -agnostic- simply doesn’t commit to any speculation. This seems like a paradox to me.

God = Creator of the universe
Atheist = Doesn’t believe in a divine being
Divine being = Creator of the universe
Thus an atheist must believe in God, no?

The only exception to this that I can think of would be if someone thought the universe simply wasn’t created. That the universe always was and always will be.

I’d particularly like to hear from some atheists on this matter. Also, if anyone finds a mistake in my logic, by all means share it! This line of thinking seems really basic to me and I can’t help but feel it’s flawed somewhere, even if I can’t find it. Sometimes it helps to have someone else take a look at the same problem.

May 15, 2013 at 6:19 pm
Sean (24) (@thrash197) 8 years, 2 months ago ago

@pretzilstix, I think God is a symbol attributed to what made the universe, meaning God is what created the universe, but what created the universe isn’t necessarily God. This is because what created the universe existed before they term “God” existed. This is just what I believe, but does that make sense to you?

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TheSkaFish (962)M (@theskafish) 8 years, 2 months ago ago

@pretzilstix, in all honesty, I believe the jury’s out on this one. God may in fact exist. I just don’t like it when people are led to believe in the afterlife so hard that they make choices to sacrifice happiness, achievement, memories, greatness, and joy in this life because they think they’ll just get to have all the fun they didn’t have on Earth in Heaven. Or that they take people for granted because they believe they’ll just see them again in Heaven or something. Maybe Heaven is real, but I’m not willing to live my life betting everything on it.

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Drew (24) (@drew112358) 8 years, 2 months ago ago

@pretzilstix, you make a good point, but if you are trying to say that God and a divine being are not necessarily the same, it might be best not to define them as the same thing. If God is the creator of the universe, whoever or whatever that/she/he may be, then maybe a divine being could be defined as something like the embodiment or personification of God? Or something along those lines.

Oh, and @theskafish, well said.

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Tiárnanriatten (0) (@T-man32) 8 years, 2 months ago ago

@pretzilstix,
As you stated, the term itself deals directly with the notion of a supreme being, regardless of what other “beliefs” an atheist might have. Most of my friends are atheist’s, believing that when they die they will simply decompose and return to the earth, nothing more. Their beliefs in this instance usually don’t have much effect on how they view the universe was created. Yet I see the paradox; for something to be created surely there must have been a creator? I used to consider myself an atheist, I am not a religious person and do not consider myself an agnostic, yet the term ‘atheist’ doesn’t sit well with me. In all honesty I am often left confused when I consider what my own beliefs actually are, as I would talk to “God” every so often, not in prayer, but in an informal “Hey, how’s it going?” way. There are so many things to take into consideration with the prospect of a higher or divine being. Most of the so many thousand’s of religions in this world are centered around a monotheistic system, all of which pretty much state the same fundamental elements; it’s just the stories and characters that change. To take a few examples – Jesus, Buddha, Hare Krishna; they all urge their followers to do what’s right, to be honest, to help others and to live a happy and fulfilled life, which is a good thing regardless of their beliefs on an afterlife. If there is no afterlife to speak of in a conscious sense, then no one is going to be sad about it when they die, because they will not exist! Speaking of afterlives, the three ‘Gods’ mentioned above have similar ones in a sense. Christians go to Heaven where they will bask in the love and praise of “God”, while both Buddhists and followers of Hare Krishna strive to break the chain of re-incarnation and travel to Nirvana/return to God-Head. I feel I may have went off topic, but there is a relative point. When I began to look at these examples and others (from other religious beliefs to scientific fact and theory), it didn’t strengthen my atheism, but led me to think that there must be some “unified theory of religion, spirituality and science” and regardless of whatever actually created the universe it must have some kind of conscious resonance with ourselves and every other self aware being out there, even if that which created it doesn’t have a conscious mind to speak of. After proof reading this, and re-reading your question, It seems that in my own personal case, you are correct sir! At least in the sense that I was once an atheist who went on to have certain ‘religious’ beliefs. How others feel I do not know. I rarely talk to people about this kind of thing as they are often uninterested. I’d love to talk about it more if you have the time! Thoughts and feelings of any kind more than welcome.

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Thus Spoke Haze (102) (@ehsan) 8 years, 2 months ago ago

@pretzilstix, While I believe anyone who proclaims themselves an atheist is sophomoric, your claim is not necessarily true.

We can find the flaw in your logic by looking out the definitions you created:

“God = Creator of the universe
Atheist = Doesn’t believe in a divine being
Divine being = Creator of the universe
Thus an atheist must believe in God, no?”

To start, we have to clarify your “equation” to look at what you’re really implying.

God = creator of the universe.
Atheist = doesn’t believe in a divine being. We can replace divine being with God because there’s no need to over complicate things, so we don’t even need the last line.

What we’re left with is this:
God = creator of the universe
Atheist = Doesn’t believe in a God.

What you’re assuming here is that an all powerful God IS the creator of the universe. If this was a fact then the atheist would be forced to believe in God, alas it is not a fact. It is a religious speculation.

So that is why your argument is invalid, what you should be asking is whether or not an omnipotent God actually does exist. Unfortunately, I will not stick around to argue as the burden of proof lies upon those who make the claim, and the argument for or against God is one I’ve grown uninterested in.

“Sometimes it helps to have someone else take a look at the same problem.” indeed it does.

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E.C.F. Doyle (346) (@chekovchameleon) 8 years, 2 months ago ago

@pretzilstix, Atheist here! You make a fair point, however, I see at least one problem.

Let us, for arguments sake, say the universe (and all that perhaps lies beyond) began by a physical phenomenon, such as the big bang. By your logic this may be called “God”, and there is nothing definable about the concept of God to say this could not be true. The big bang could be defined as God. But as an atheist I argue that God is a human concept and a very changeable concept at that. I would not find it necessary to define something, which has already been defined, as God. Does this make sense?

If God is not some divine engineer or celestial guardian but merely all that is, ever was and ever will be, that is fair enough. But know that the only difference between this and atheism is the use of the word God. For what we are now defining as God an atheist would call the cosmos.

So does this not radically alter the concept of God to suit the side of the theist. Atheists do not deny the existence of the cosmos, in fact quite the opposite, we do not, however, believe that the universe was created but more so began from something that came before, so if you were to explain to an atheist that you believed God was the cosmos and nothing more they would most likely find it silly but acceptable.

I hope I have explained this properly……I am very tired.

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MPHill (775) (@everymorningbornfromtheashes) 8 years, 2 months ago ago

If a sentient thing created the universe I find it hard to believe. There are no facts to substantiate that. As atheist I think skepticism in that respect is welcomed. Always of course look for answers, but grill all the fat off the answers. We shouldn’t be so willing to jump to conclusions based on warm fuzzy feelings.

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yugen (29) (@jreynolds789) 8 years, 2 months ago ago

@pretzilstix

“God = Creator of the universe
Atheist = Doesn’t believe in a divine being
Divine being = Creator of the universe
Thus an atheist must believe in God, no?”

No. You contradicted yourself. If according to you, atheists don’t believe in a divine being, and a divine being = creator or the universe which = God. Then lol, no, atheists do not believe in God. And thats just according to you. So you read and wrote your little thing wrong. Not to mention the obvious definition of an atheist which literally means “a person who does not believe in a God or Gods”

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Pretzilstix (51) (@Pretzilstix) 8 years, 2 months ago ago

Hmm… So interesting. I wish I could reply to you all!

@chekovchameleon Yes. Yes, that makes sense to me. I’m not denying at all that the logic is silly and loose. I wouldn’t actually be as bold to say that atheists think there is a god. This is more of a logic fallacy, as you seem to have gathered. My logic would be as if we took this information and fed it to a computer. The computed result would be that atheists believe in god.

@ehsan and @jreynolds789 Close but not exactly what I’m saying. I’m suggesting that if in fact you believe that this universe was created, by definition the “thing” that created this universe (whether conscious or not) is essentially “God”, in that it is a divine being. Let’s say, for example, the big bang created the universe. The big bang isn’t an all powerful being, just a “God” by definition. Furthermore, the fact that this equation of sorts contradicts itself is the pivot point of this argument! It is saying that, regardless of your religion, either the universe wasn’t created, or you believe in God.

@t-man32 I think you’re onto what I’m saying. This kind of thinking requires that you let go of the thought that “God” may be a person and instead think of it as an action or object, which I believe you did. As for your theory of unified religion, I would say I mostly agree. I think different cultures and religions have pieces of the “truth”. The difficult part is taking away the embellishments (which often times leaves us with nothing).

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Ray Butler (1,423)M (@trek79) 8 years, 2 months ago ago

@pretzilstix, I believe in a certain definition of God but I also believe the universe wasn’t created as you suggested. My idea of God and such a universe are dependant on the prevailing theories on quantum physics.
But I will say that other than curiosity, what relevance does believing or constructing theories about God and the universe provide? It doesn’t change anything on the ground here, the primary point of religious doctrine is to promote ethical conduct, moral fortitude and cultural values. Any of that is attainable by logic and common sense and does not need further justification by elaboration on hypotheticals.

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Ray Butler (1,423)M (@trek79) 8 years, 2 months ago ago

@pretzilstix, I understand faith, I have it myself for the Resurrection, that is something I can’t prove will or wont happen and is something I can choose to believe, but if everything that counts and can actually make a real world difference is not a matter of speculation then faith becomes irrelevant.
If you know God exists in whatever form and for whatever reason you find peace with your own mortality and you have ample reason to exist in a manner that is appropriate to all around you, then faith is obsolete.
Better still, if you realize that the existence of God and the question of your own mortality are irrelevant, yet you still find rational cause to live in a manner appropriate to your surroundings, then faith becomes irrelevant.
Regardless of the existence, or not, of God and despite what may or may not happen at death, hell even if everything you have, do or will experience is just a figment, what remains constant and what counts, if only to you and your own sanity, is that you choose to manifest the motivation of your heart in your deeds and thoughts.
That is all that ever mattered, all that was ever relevant, reaching out beyond that for anything other than finding new and better ways to apply your heart to action, what real point is experience or belief beyond that? What point is faith beyond that?

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Ray Butler (1,423)M (@trek79) 8 years, 2 months ago ago

Faith means you do not have to question, so in a way refusing to question if or not God exists is faith. But that is not what I mean, I am saying you can ask and believe anything you want, but after all is said and done you have to then ask what counts.
How would solid proof of the existence of God change us? The original goal is to express your heart in your interactions, if you do not already do that or are not already trying to do that, then perhaps solid proof of the existence of God may motivate you to do it. But if you already do it, or try to do it, then solid proof in God will not change that original purpose.
So again I ask, what is the purpose of faith in God? (the same also applies to what may or may not happen at death) Is it only to motivate people to display their heart in their deeds? Well no, logic can instruct us of the benefits of doing that, belief in God is not necessary in that process.
So as I said, those pursuits are but a curiosity that have no real impact on a person living life in accord to their heart and identity.
Those beliefs that you choose to embrace only become relevant when they interfere with that goal of applying your heart to your behavior, if those beliefs stop you from displaying your heart and who you are, or if they stop you from seeking out better ways to display yourself, then the belief is in question, not who you are.
So your beliefs only become relevant when they are contradictory to you being who you are.

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Anonymous (254) (@) 8 years, 2 months ago ago

Think of it another way. Atheists don’t care if someone can semantically tongue tie themselves in order to rationally dismiss logic.

When there is a reason to need God to exist to explain the known universe, atheists will probably agree, until then – stop trying to categorize people who don’t agree with you, it’s pointless.

The idea of creation is a fallacy to begin with. Why not call him the destroyer? It’s equally valid – why not say the universe has been destroyed by “God” and we’re just experiencing it very, very slowly? That’s your logic – it’s moot.

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Matt (0) (@maxis) 8 years, 2 months ago ago

In my opinion atheism is mostly a refusal to believe in the God(s) of the bible, and any other religious texts.

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Josh (213) (@reinvented2012) 8 years, 2 months ago ago

@pretzilstix, I think that people use the term God loosely as you mentioned. The term God can mean so many things from divine being, to the big bang and so on. I like to think of God as the universe though, at least I have been toying with the idea. For example people say “God has a plan for me” or “whatever God has in store for me”, well I like to think that same way but replace God with Universe, makes sense I think. I find it hard to believe in a divine being or ultimate creator even though I was raised catholic, I dont want to tie myself to that belief. In that sense I guess I could be considered Atheist, but I do like the idea of God being in all of us, or all of us being God. I think that in some cases if everyone thought that maybe we would all be better off, however at the same time that could be a bad thing if people took it the wrong way. This is also why its important for people to realize how small we are in the grand scheme of things, keeping their egos from ruling (even though thats how it is now). I hope I made some sense out of that.

@theskafish, I agree with you, I dont like the idea of people believing in a better place than earth or in reincarnation if they are using it as an excuse for suicide. Granted its not my life being taken, but I see it as a waste of a human being that could have so much potential and that person could have the most amazing experiences in life.

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Anonymous (364) (@) 8 years, 2 months ago ago

Atheists, believing in one less god than you do.

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Anonymous (0) (@) 8 years, 2 months ago ago

Atheists simply reject the notion a divine being creating the universe with hand clap lights and poof magic. Additionally, God is commonly defined as a man in the sky that watches over us, a big bang, multiverse, a thought, FSM, ect would not fit this commonly known definition of God, which atheists rejects.

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DaFunks (366)M (@Dafunks) 8 years, 2 months ago ago

As God is a character from a made up book you can reinvent him/her/it however you like. It is done all the time, mainly in religion.

Your notion of an Atheist believing in creation is 100% wrong. It was not created. It is a concept that believers find hard to understand.

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Verbal DNA (74) (@doblearcoiris) 8 years, 2 months ago ago

I think the problem is that we find comfort in definitions and classifications where if we were to rid ourselves of this tendency we would find ourselves with a much clearer perspective.

I do not believe in any organized religion for they are crafted by the hand of man. God I believe should be completely inaccesible to man, God is infinity, not some man in the sky.

When I think of God, I think of the mysterious force that surrounds us, the processor on which our universe is running on. When a leaf falls in a lake, the ripples reach the bank and move some twigs, all of this happens according to a certain logic that extends from that moment all the way back to the birth of space-time. This internal logic, to me, is God.

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ty (1) (@tyler-durden) 8 years, 2 months ago ago

Language puts up most of the barriers when it comes to abstraction.
Saying that atheists believe in god is contradictory because the word itself means godless.
The whole concept of atheism is based on unraveling the mistery and only believing what you’re able to support with concrete evidences.

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TheSkaFish (962)M (@theskafish) 8 years, 2 months ago ago

@reinvented2012, it’s not so much that they believe an afterlife or better place justifies suicide, but that an afterlife or better place justifies settling. That it justifies wasting away in some dumb job never doing anything remarkable.

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E.C.F. Doyle (346) (@chekovchameleon) 8 years, 2 months ago ago

@pretzilstix, I assume by the information that you would feed to a computer would be:

God = Creator of the universe
Atheist = Doesn’t believe in a divine being
Divine being = Creator of the universe

This would not result in the computer saying that atheists believe in god. The flaw here is your assumption that atheists believe the universe was created. We don’t believe the big bang, or anything else, created the universe but that this is where time and space began. So all this calculation would equate to is that atheists do not believe there is a creator of the universe, which is pretty much the situation as it stands.
eg:
Atheist = Doesn’t believe in a divine being
_
God = Creator of the universe
God= divine being
-therefore-
Divine being = Creator of the universe
-therefore-
Atheist= doesn’t believe in a creator of the universe

P.s. All kittens are cats but all cats are not kittens.

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Anonymous (145) (@) 8 years, 2 months ago ago

Too bad atheists base their philosophy on ignorance and naivete. “Everyone else is stupid and we’re not.”

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E.C.F. Doyle (346) (@chekovchameleon) 8 years, 2 months ago ago

@whowhatwhy

That statement is not self defeating at all.

And neither is that one^ LOL

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