Consciousness.

thePinkMyr (@thepinkmyr) 8 years, 9 months ago

I was thinking today about conscious and subconscious.
Then I thought about animals and whether they are conscious of their consciousness. My initial thought said that I don’t know. Then I made the assumption for the sake of it, no they are not conscious.
That brought me to how they communicate between each other, and how we communicate. I looked at the differences and noticed that we have structured language, whereas animals can only use body language essentially.
That brought me BACK to subconscious. The idea that the subconscious does much more than our higher consciousness. Where structured language contributes X% and our body languaage contributes so much more to how we communicate with each other.
ALL THAT AND ALL I GOT WAS:
subconscious is ancient and subliminal, whereas consciousness is young and superficial. LOL.

Remember, GLHF!

February 14, 2013 at 6:03 am
Dan (890) (@danfontaine) 8 years, 9 months ago ago

@thepinkmyr, Language = Consciousness!

“The word became flesh and dwelt amongst us” – Jesus.

Animals don’t have any sense of subjectivity. They don’t experience events the way we do – it is because of language that we are self aware. And yes you’re right, this is young and superficial but it is evolving into something grand.

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Dan (890) (@danfontaine) 8 years, 9 months ago ago

@thepinkmyr, GLHF, DON’T DIE

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Alex (551) (@hollowinfinity) 8 years, 9 months ago ago

As stated by Kurt Godel and his famous theorems, axioms build on each other infinitely. You always need an outside source to explain a closed system. So any closed system is really incomplete, or needs a couple assumptions. A system used to explain the Universe would be larger than the Universe itself in other words.

I’ve pondered though, what if there was an infinite regress the other way too? What if there is no initial axiom. So underneath language, there are more and more axioms, infinitely. Language for example could be the axiom for subconscious, and subconscious and axiom for something else, etc.

This would make your essence all pervading I suppose, and you wouldn’t even need any space to do it. There is no telling.

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Dan (890) (@danfontaine) 8 years, 9 months ago ago

@hollowinfinity,
How could there be an initial axiom unless the universe was created by linear thought? Axiom is only evident because the universe isn’t chaotic and therefore we can study it and draw conclusions. We’re so cool.
“This would make your essence all pervading I suppose, and you wouldn’t even need any space to do it.”
This.

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Dan (890) (@danfontaine) 8 years, 9 months ago ago

@hollowinfinity, Axioms are what, mathematical proofs? I ask you, where did math come from?

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The Panolipsist (22) (@panolipsist) 8 years, 9 months ago ago

It is my experience that Consciousness actually takes us closer to ourselves and further form God, nature, humanity, and the rest of the universe. Where-as the lack of consciousness and pure subconsciousness, as in meditative states, Brings you closer to the world around you.
I do, however think, that other creatures have a form of consciousness. It may not be as self centered as our for of consciousness but I defiantly think there is something there.

You guys might find this interesting… I did

http://ezinearticles.com/?Consciousness-of-Plants&id=527590

http://areplantsconscious.com/

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nobody (32) (@nobody) 8 years, 9 months ago ago

Quantum physics, neuroscience, eatern philosophy, DMT experience: missing link!?

I’ve posted my essay on animal consciousness further down in the threat.
And animals actually DO possess some kind of language for cummunication. dolphins do via ultrasound, apes and elephants via distinct “screams” and birds via their singing.
They just cant communicate with language composed of words and structured syntax because thei dont have the brain areas we humans have for this purpose (–> “wernicke area” for speech production and “Broca area” for speech understanding)
This is why @danfontaine is wrong. language is NOT equal to consciousness. Furthermore, you cannot say that animals dont have any sense of subjectivity. Thats in fact wrong. They do have different kinds of subjectivity (look up the “mirror test”). They may even possess some kind of metacognition. We dont know and we CANNOT know (epistemological restrictions by Kant).

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nobody (32) (@nobody) 8 years, 9 months ago ago

@panolipsist, come on, man. dont believe everything you read. use your common sense!
“Eggs also ‘faint’ when it has been mentally decided to pick them up and break them – and they register a ‘nervous’ response when
another egg is actually broken nearby”

A nervous response in an organism that has no nervous system…interesting. Carnivorous plant dont even have a nervous system and they SEEM to have quite an intelligent approach to catching their prey. In fact, Carnivorous plants and other plants have a very sensitive net of fibers and mebmranes that span their surface. once that membrane is penetrated (by a fly for example), filaments within the plant contract and cause the plant to close (or give any other sort of response). No nervous system (includes having no brain of course) –> no conscious awareness –> no processing of pain. Simple as that.

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Dan (890) (@danfontaine) 8 years, 9 months ago ago

@nobody, K you have pointed out that I am wrong in that humans aren’t the only animal with the capacity for language of some form – but I maintain that our level of self awareness is hallmark to our species and this is directly related to our advancement in language.
Yeah, a dolphin can communicate with other dolphins via ultrasound but does it communicate with itself? A gorilla can screech out of instinctual fervor but is that intelligence?
As for the mirror test: that can be demystified with the simple fact that they have evolved mirror neurons for cooperation amongst their own species as well as a working emotional memory.
And just cause Kant couldn’t doesn’t mean I can’t.
Don’t you call me wrong, dick.
You have no idea how retarded you are.
Wisdom.

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Dan (890) (@danfontaine) 8 years, 9 months ago ago

@panolipsist, I’m feeling that

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nobody (32) (@nobody) 8 years, 9 months ago ago

@danfontaine, “And just cause Kant couldn’t doesn’t mean I can’t.
Don’t you call me wrong, dick.
You have no idea how retarded you are.”

Haha it really made me laugh that you get so upset by it. I just said that you were wrong and told you how things really are in that very case. It was meant as a help, not even as criticism. But the way you responded calling me a dick and retarded shows me just how ignorant you are. Thats a bad characteristic, you know? You can still believe in “Language= consciousness” but that just aint true…believe what you want and stay ignorant, i dont care. Peace!

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nobody (32) (@nobody) 8 years, 9 months ago ago

@danfontaine, and btw.: “As for the mirror test: that can be demystified with the simple fact that they have evolved mirror neurons for cooperation amongst their own species as well as a working emotional memory.”

yes, mirror neurons may have evoled in association with cultural development. Nevertheless, this has barely something to do with the mirror test where the reaction (interaction) of an individual with itself is being investigated. The central observations are: subject not reacting to mirror image (maybe even treating it as a threat) = no self consciousness. subject trying to remove dot on forehead = complex mental mechanisms leading to the idea “wait a minute, theres something on my forehead that shoulndt be there = self awareness. Believe it or not.

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Ray Butler (1,423)M (@trek79) 8 years, 9 months ago ago

@thepinkmyr, Animals are more in touch with consciousness than us. Consciousness is the fundamental of the universe that compels everything toward the function it exists to fulfill, but with the conceptual and imaginative abilities that humans have, we replace this universal compulsion with intellectual constructs, because we insist that our mental ability is more than a tool and we make it our identity, and we then cease to be compelled toward our natural function.
Our natural function is to understand all the natural functioning around us and use it to advantage while minimizing disadvantage, but instead we become distracted from this practical method by explorations, judgements, insistences and enforcements of irrelevant concepts and issues.
Animals don’t have that problem, they fulfill the natural function that consciousness compels them toward because they lack the intellectual factor that often only serves to confuse beings that possess it.

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Dan (890) (@danfontaine) 8 years, 9 months ago ago

@nobody, I doubt it made you laugh. Makes me smile though that you thought I was upset and now I’m observing your conceited attempts to belittle me while trying to counteract how bad I just trashed you in the light of a community that you believe gives a fuck how intelligent you are.
The fact that you truly believe you have the insight to tell me how things ‘really are’ is just making me all tingly.

“yes, mirror neurons may have evoled in association with cultural development. Nevertheless, this has barely something to do with the mirror test where the reaction (interaction) of an individual with itself is being investigated. The central observations are: subject not reacting to mirror image (maybe even treating it as a threat) = no self consciousness. subject trying to remove dot on forehead = complex mental mechanisms leading to the idea “wait a minute, theres something on my forehead that shoulndt be there = self awareness. Believe it or not.”

Ya, no. Lol. Fucking with an animal via stimuli does not prove anything.
*Ooh the animal is reacting to our plot. Let us impose our ideologies unto this occurrence and derive a conclusion based on our expectations going into this hypothesis*
Fail science fails.
You know there’s such a thing as terrible scientists, right?
I think you might be one of them.

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Dan (890) (@danfontaine) 8 years, 9 months ago ago

@trek79, I think there’s a good point being made within this thread that consciousness, is not the same thing as what you speak of.
There is interactivity pro-pulsing ‘right’ behavior, yes – The automation of nature – the subconscious interweb I wanna call it – pure mathematics – but now we have this new element: self awareness.
Like an anomaly born out of two mirrors facing each other symmetrically. Suddenly we have an exponentially, nay- infinitely higher level of complexity, all of the data that exists is now reacting against itself – an asexual transcendental reality.

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nobody (32) (@nobody) 8 years, 9 months ago ago

“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge.”
― Stephen Hawking

I was never trying to belittle you nor do I think I’m super intelligent. I just wanted to correct your FALSE statements about things I happen to know more about than you. No doubt that you are more knowledgeable in other subjects. Apparently, you simply cannot deal with the fact of being wrong. Grow up!

I’m gonna stop the conversation now.

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Ray Butler (1,423)M (@trek79) 8 years, 9 months ago ago

@danfontaine, I’m just saying these universal laws that compel all things to function as they do, can be explained mathematically but that is the sum of parts, the actual functioning is more than that.
You are taking awareness, self-awareness and finally conceptual and creative awareness and classifying it as consciousness, I think they are not the same thing. But things that we know to exist without any level of awareness, an atom for example, is still compelled to fulfill its function, you call that the laws of physics but I call that consciousness.
Consciousness is something experts on it are still baffled by, I am just saying don’t describe cognitive ability as consciousness, we don’t know that and more signs point to that not being the case than those supporting the supposition.

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Anonymous (177) (@) 8 years, 9 months ago ago

there’s a LOT more to consciousness than thoughts, consciousness, sub-consciousness and human pride. animals, plants, nature in general communicate non-verbally and non-consciously. we humankind have the same ability which is innate. but we do enjoy playing with our cerebriality.

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Ray Butler (1,423)M (@trek79) 8 years, 9 months ago ago

@rickyferdon, The general idea of consciousness is; when you are awake you are conscious and when you are asleep you are unconscious. But this is only as far as our mental state, while we sleep every part of us is very much awake and performing functions.
Animals sleep, so this mean they can be mentally conscious-awake, and mentally unconscious-asleep. The simplest life is awake, you see it under the microscope moving about the petridish, so technically it is awake and therefore conscious according to popular definition.

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Ray Butler (1,423)M (@trek79) 8 years, 9 months ago ago

Simple single cell life is also aware, this is proven when you subject it to stimulii, it reacts and may even adapt, this is what evolution is based on. Just as life advances up the cognitive scale it becomes cognitively aware, you get animals who have self-awareness in the simple fact they have the instinct of self-preservation. But human level of awareness takes on, as I said, conceptual and creative/imaginative awareness. But is that consciousness? I beg to differ.

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Ray Butler (1,423)M (@trek79) 8 years, 9 months ago ago

Then you can talk about a rock, in all appearance it is unconscious/asleep, but to look at its structure under an electron micoscope, it is moving about, its baser parts would be what we consider to be very much awake and therefore, dare I say, conscious?

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The Panolipsist (22) (@panolipsist) 8 years, 9 months ago ago

@nobody, I simply said it was interesting. I didn’t say it was all true. It is known that plants (mimosa pudika) do have reactions and OBVIOUSLY they do not have brains. There is a tree that changes its taste of its leaves when giraffes start eating them and not only does that one tree change but all trees in a 5 miles radius change. My point, and sorry if it wasn’t clear, is that just because something has a reaction does not mean it has the same consciousness as us. Also language is so primitive When I say consciousness does not mean you and I are interpreting that word the same way. Animals feel, think, react, and yes even communicate. Animals can warn about danger with sounds or show love with body language but only humans can have a conversation like we are now. the difference is we ask and wonder and tha’ts what our consciousness is. We also have a subconscious which is more instinctual or animal. just beacuse something is aware does not mean it has consciousness

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The Panolipsist (22) (@panolipsist) 8 years, 9 months ago ago

@rickyferdon, Very cool! I think being in touch with our subconscious is so much more important then our conscious mind.

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Alex (551) (@hollowinfinity) 8 years, 9 months ago ago

@danfontaine, Axioms do not have to be related to math at all. Say I have a box filled with a million different things. Instead of having to list each item every time I mention it, I create an axiom called “Boxofshit” to represent the million different things within the box.

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Alex (551) (@hollowinfinity) 8 years, 9 months ago ago

I mean, there is the chance I am using the word incorrectly, but still. An axiom could also be a self-evident truth. Something that requires no proof. So when I say, this ‘boxofshit’ it is a self-evident truth, that I am talking about the million items that are held within the box.

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