Datura / Flying Ointment

Jordan Lejuwaan (@jordan) 9 years, 2 months ago

Hey fellow psychonauts, I have some questions for you today about one of the least commonly used psychedelics — Datura / Jimson Weed / Devil’s Trumpet. FYI This baby grows naturally in many places, and has been used by shamans for centuries to achieve magical states. It is also the substance that was reportedly used by witches to fly, change into animal form, cast spells, etc.

It’s pretty damn interesting.

More info: http://www.erowid.org/plants/datura/datura.shtml

I recently found out that the best way to get Datura into your body is through a skin ointment, since the skin does not absorb Atropine (the chemical that makes ingesting large amounts of Datura very dangerous). The skin does, however, absorb Skopolamine, which is what you’re really after ;)

Questions:

1) Has anyone made this ointment before, and if so could you share your recipe? This is one of the queries for which Google has failed me.

2) What were your experiences like?

October 31, 2012 at 1:40 pm
Manimal (2,998) (@manimal) 9 years, 2 months ago ago

1) I don’t remember the recipe, unfortunately.

2) Pure horror. First there was this very crisp and clean feeling, time was slowing down, then this creepy unsettling feeling started emerging, things felt increasingly bad. Then weird shit started happening, reality warping and all that jazz.

Then all sorts of creepy shit started popping up all over. Old zombie ladies, robo-spiders, crying demon children, that kind of shit. I actually had a fake death experience during the trip, one of the demon kids stabbed me and everything went black and I lost consciousness.

Two hours later my then-girlfriend came home and found me hiding under the bed in fetal position, and couldn’t get a response out of me. It’s funny, because when I lost consciousness I was in the bathroom. The place was a mess too, I probably went berserk while I was unconscious.

From what I understand, you’re almost guraranteed a horror trip when you use datura. I know a few people who have tried it and all had this kind of trip. I was aware of this before I tried, I’d read about it on the internet and people were all saying you get bad trips. It was a horrible experience, but I’m glad I had it, there’s much to learn from it.

Maybe the trip is different if you don’t ingest the atropine, I have no idea.

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Jordan Lejuwaan (23,445)A (@jordan) 9 years, 2 months ago ago

@manimal, So you ingested the seeds instead of using an ointment?

Yeah the vast majority of recorded datura experiences seem to be on the negative side. The feminine datura spirit is supposed to be one of the most illusive, intimidating and devious. I’ve read that the preparation and the experience must be taken on with the UTMOST respect for her, or she will fuck you up. Especially if you trip without a specific intention.

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Eric (1,819)M (@blankey) 9 years, 2 months ago ago

I heard marijuana/weed was made illegal partly because they confused or purposely said that marijuana is Jimson weed.

And yeah, I would not fuck with this. All of the trip reports I’ve heard sound terrible.

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Manimal (2,998) (@manimal) 9 years, 2 months ago ago

@jordan, I’ve tried both, but when I had the ointment applied it was a smaller dose and it was a guided session, so I don’t know to what the differences should be credited.

But both times were definitely very “bad” trips (there’s really no such thing as a negative trip, a trip is just a trip.)
It must be treated with respect, but so should all intensely mind-altering substances.

It’s funny about that datura spirit, “Lady Datura,” because most people encounter an old woman entity/presence in the trip. To me, it was a welcoming old lady who turned out to be a skeleton with a skull full of maggots.
It’s funny, because the whole vibe of the trip has that “female temper tantrum” quality.

Maha Kali comes to mind, the divine feminine punishes those who are unworthy and rewards the strong. I find that description very fitting to stuff like this.
Respect and intention are definitely the key, after all it’s a lady we’re dealing with… and like with any other lady, intention is crucial.

If you do try datura, you’re guaranteed a mindblowing experience, to say the very least. And if you do have one of those horror trips, you’ll likely also find that you get this afterglow of fearlessness, peace that lasts for a few weeks.

I’m almost getting tempted to try it again haha…

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yoinkie (1,498)C (@yoinkie) 9 years, 2 months ago ago

@jordan, I think you should talk to @thomaschong, He recently told us a story of his long Datura experience, which also sounded horrific.

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Colton (26) (@emecom) 9 years, 2 months ago ago

@jordan, I’ve never tried it myself, but if you want some detailed experiences and I think a guide to ingesting it you should read The Teachings of Don Juan: A Yaqui Way of Knowledge by Carlos Castaneda. It is a book about a college student that starts training to become a Native American shaman and to do so he has to take a few different drugs including Datura and Peyote and if I remember it right he details how he collected them and ingested them and writes detailed reports on his trips.

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Anonymous (481) (@) 9 years, 2 months ago ago

@jordan, First off, never do it, the problem with Datura is that it isn’t regulated at all, becuase its made by nature, one seed can have a 20 times higher dose than another, you could get a dry mouth, or end up in a mental institution for 2 weeks until you come down. This is my experience with one terrible drug.

I was visiting a friend in Oregon, he had a house really deep in the woods, I had to hike for 3 hours just to reach it, since I didn’t have a dirt bike, which would probably be the only thing that could traverse the road to his house. When I reached the house at about seven, more like a cabin actually, I found it to be quaint, he had about 4 generators in the basement, which powered the cabin, he had somewhere around 70 full gas canisters in the shed by a stream out back, we went inside, I had no idea how he got a fridge out into the woods, and still don’t, but we had frozen pizza for dinner.

After dinner, we burned a couple bowls, then, he told me that he had some Jamison Weed, we divided it up between us, and ingested it. I can usually remember drug trips pretty well, but this drug was a totally different animal. We felt pretty good for about an hour, then things started to get trippy, the walls were breathing, objects seemed to be moving around, but after an hour of this, things started getting fucked up. The room was lit up by a single over head light, and a small light on a coffee table. I was soon scared at the light, it made me uneasy to look at, soon it started burning my eyes, I closed them, but it was still there, burning me, my friend told me “This must have been some shitty product, right?” but his voice sounded like a demon, and he wouldn’t stop talking, I couldn’t hear the words he was saying anymore, but his demonic voice grew louder and louder, it was inside my head, I was crying becuase the light hurt so bad. I tried running out of the house, but perspectives started violently shifting, I couldn’t tell how tall I was, how big anything was, or how far away it was, I stumbled outside, puked all over myself, I couldn’t even tell I was puking until I smelled it, I ran into the forest, my eyes were burning, they hurt so bad, I jumped into a stream, and started splashing water onto my eyes.

But I noticed something was moving in the water, little parasitical worms, they started jumping up out of the water, and burrowing into my skin, into my eyes, I felt them swimming around inside my body, I ran deep into the woods. Perspective was shifting so violently that I kept running into trees. I had a giant gash on my forehead, I felt the blood coming out, I saw a giant worm come out, so I started bashing my head against a tree, as hard as I could, to kill the worm, but it wouldn’t die. I hit my head so hard that I fell to the ground with a concussion, on the ground, I saw an extremely bright light floating through the woods, a demon with a flash light started talking to me with his demonic voice, I can’t remember anything at all after this, I ended waking up 10 days later, in my friends guest bed room, I stayed at his house a few more days, then went home.

What had happened in those ten days, according to my friend, was that he found me in the woods about an 8th of a mile away from his house after an hour of looking for me, he had to carry me back home, where I started smearing blood from my forehead and drawing pictures on the wall, he had to tie me to a bed frame with my head facing down hanging over the edge so when I puked it would be in a bucket. I was constantly screaming and babbling nonsense, I wouldn’t eat for the next couple days, I shit my pants twice, and pissed everywhere. I then went into a sort of coma until I woke up a few days later, took a shower, helped clean up my poor friends house, then went back to sleep.

All of which I have no recollection of.

Stay the fuck away from Datura, man.

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Anonymous (481) (@) 9 years, 2 months ago ago

@yoinkie, It’s one shitty drug.

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Jordan Lejuwaan (23,445)A (@jordan) 9 years, 2 months ago ago

@thomaschong, That’s exactly why making the ointment is imperative. The scopolamine is equally distributed among the entire batch, and it is absorbed very quickly transdermally so you can slowly apply more and more until you have the desired effect. I have no doubt this will be the most harrowing trip imaginable, but you know that isn’t going to stop me hehe ;) Anyways, thanks for sharing your story. Informative and entertaining as always my friend.

@manimal, I imagine Lady Datura will respond to you like any other plant spirit — if you accept what you are shown without fear, you move on to the next level. DMT definitely does this, same with shrooms to a certain extent. I’ve read about people taking MDMA along with datura, but it sounds like the Lady might feel disrespected by that. Anyways thanks for your insights.

@emecom, Yeah he’s the reason it’s as ‘popular’ as it is. From the excerpts I’ve read online, his master wasn’t a big fan of Datura so they didn’t delve too deep into it. Don Juan apparently did not take kindly to the Lady haha.

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Anonymous (364) (@) 9 years, 2 months ago ago

From a biomedical perspective, a stable preparation Is available as hyoscine bromide (I don’t know if the bromide bit changes the biochemistry or bioavailability), which is administered at medial doses intravenously to ‘dry out’ chest secretions. I’ve not heard any adverse issues after administration.

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Anonymous (2,833) (@) 9 years, 2 months ago ago

@jordan, There is a the legendary concoction called “Witches Brew” which is primarily composed of Datura, but there are some others in there, I think fly agaric was one. Anyway, the trip I heard about this was… well, it can’t be topped, really. The person literally and figuratively died. Her friend who was close by and measured her pulse to be completely gone, and her body limp and cold. Yet her trip was quite vivid.

Scopolamine, from all I’ve read about it is not like other hallucinogens its somewhere close to something like salvia and psilocybin mixed. Very psychodelic, but also you don’t really understand that what you are seeing is figments of the mind’s eye. Its hard to differentiate between perception and reality. On salvia what you see is very hard to say “this is just the drug” and most user’s report having forgotten that they’ve taken the drug – so how will one ascend past this!?

The use I see for datura is simple; you go as far as you can and you come back. The insights are minimal during the trip, but you may realize how you truly perceive fear and life from such a drug.

I would take it with caution, as the toxicity curve is steep – whereas with psilocybin, a doubling of a dose can be fine. Doubling of scopolamine (more so atropine) could be fatal.

Also I just read this
“also LD50 of scopolamine is lower than LD50 of atropine, so scopolamine can be considered more toxic than atropine. ”

So I would double check where you are getting your information.

FURTHER I just looked at the molecular structure and the difference isn’t enough to tell me that one is going to be absorbed through the skin while the other stays. I don’t think this is true – atleast not to any noticeable degree.

Sorry, here you go:
http://www.psychonaut.com/other-psychoactive-plants/36011-witches-flying-ointment.html

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Anonymous (2,833) (@) 9 years, 2 months ago ago

Sorry I Can’t find the original article of Witch’s brew – you can try to find it on Psychonaut.com but they updated their database and it reset many things

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Matthew (1,127) (@ojai) 9 years, 2 months ago ago

@thomaschong, Given what you said you have the right to say

“I have seen some shit man”

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Anonymous (0) (@) 9 years, 2 months ago ago

@manimal, @jordan, @ijesuschrist, How do you guys deal with bad trips – during and after

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ELizard (229) (@heavydreamz) 9 years, 2 months ago ago

Perhaps there is a way to extract the solution you are looking for? There has got to be someone credible out there who has the ability to isolate the alkaloid your looking for, sounds RAD
@jordan,

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Anonymous (2,833) (@) 9 years, 2 months ago ago

@heavydreamz, the two components atropine and scopolamine are similar enough that you would need to have a chromotography column to separate them. That is also under the assumption that one is less toxic than the other – but they both seem to be toxic to me.

P.S.:
Atropine: ORAL (LD50): Acute: 500 mg/kg [Rat]. 75 mg/kg [Mouse]. 600 mg/kg [Rabbit].
Scopolamine (Bromide salt) ORAL (LD50): Acute: 3400 mg/kg [Rat]. 619 mg/kg

Obviously HERE atropine is more toxic, so my above information is false, however, the salt may cause a dramatic difference in toxicity.

At any rate this is a toxic compound, should be treated with respect, up dosages VERY slightly, never double a dose. Remember if you go blind it won’t be forever, it may take a week to get vision back. Good luck…

@wabasabi, tough question. All I have is bad trips for the most part, but I’m slowly getting out of that phase and into neutrality. I’ve had one euphoric trip before, and I’ve learned that I can obtain them if I want to. The way I used to deal with it is just occupy myself with something until its over. Then I just kind of sat in it and let it take me over (didn’t result in bliss or whatever, just kind stayed negative). Now, I just say fuck it, I’m done feeling like shit – that is only one perspective, let me see the other. Then I let the inner warmth, the inner light out. I breathe until I’m giddy as fuck and can’t contain my happiness anymore, then I redirect my perspective to the bad trip and realize there are certain ways of looking at things but none are correct, or atleast there isn’t one that is MORE correct, so choose the one you like the most..

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Anonymous (2,833) (@) 9 years, 2 months ago ago

I want to see someone try ibogaine…

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littlemartian (29) (@littlemartian) 9 years, 2 months ago ago

@jordan Datura is an awesome drug. Mostly because it can be found in many places and best of all its free. I would recommend smoking the leaves for a mild high. But the most high can be achieved by ingesting the seeds. But you should be aware of the doses. Too much is poisonous.
In India , this drug was used by a deity called Lord Shiva to get high and meditate. Now also when Shiva’s festival takes place, the priests in the temples give out this drug mixed with milk, cinnamon,etc. It is of course very tasty and will get you high if you drink two glasses. I have also heard that the mayans used this drug and two others to make some kind of mixture and ingest to talk to their gods and experience some kind of state of bliss.
Most people confuse this high with weed’s high but it is completely different. It cant be expressed but only experienced. It is also illegal in many countries because of this poisonous properties. But the government will ban anything, so the good properties are hidden from the general people and only the bad properties are known by all.

And i have never heard of the ointment you speak of but i won’t be surprised. The datura has many ways to get into the body. But the real thing is the experience you get once it does go inside your body.
I have also heard of another drug called peyote which is used to extract mescaline. It takes about 3 years to properly flower and grow.

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VernalSoul (598) (@vernalsoul) 9 years, 2 months ago ago

@thomaschong, Congratulations on still being alive….seriously.

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Anonymous (481) (@) 9 years, 2 months ago ago

@vernalsoul, I chock it up to luck, if he hadn’t found me, I’d have probably frozen to death.

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DaJetPlane (994)M (@lytning91) 9 years, 2 months ago ago

Holy crap…I mean…just…holy crap. My mind is exploding just reading your recount @thomaschong, let alone fathoming ever even attempting to maybe possibly consider finding this stuff for myself.

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Peace And Love (6) (@peaceandlove) 9 years, 2 months ago ago

on topic song, “coke killed a couple of people but this killed the dinosaurs”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyaqLKIvV6c

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Jordan Lejuwaan (23,445)A (@jordan) 9 years, 2 months ago ago

@ijesuschrist, Thank you very much for the detailed info. Yeah, fly agaric is one of the other common ones. I’ve also read of people having no pulse during the height of their trip and then coming back to life afterwards. Datura doesn’t mess around. Apparently the natives in Canada used it as a manhood initiation ceremony, and forbid any additional usage because it is so dangerous.

@wabasabi, Acceptance is the key. As in sober life as well! If you can accept whatever is happening, even if you’re not exactly thrilled about it, the horror will start to fade. Repeating ‘I accept this’ over and over seems to work well. Obviously this is easier to say now than during an actual bad trip (I’m no stranger to them) but if you can remember that mantra and dive into it, all will be well.

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Anonymous (130) (@) 9 years, 2 months ago ago

@jordan, I`ve just found the recipe for the ointment on a forum called……”Drugs Forum” hah

“…& here is the ointment recipe (so nobody has any excuse for not doing it):

-Crush the datura seeds in a fine powder.
-Place the powdered seeds in some lard (= pork fat).
-Add some organic soot (how to make it: see below).
-Blend well.
-Cook over a gentle heat (below 100 °C) for 2-4 hours while stiring regularly.
-Let sit for a week (at least) in a dark place, stir regularly (several times a day).
-Filter (see the note below about wearing gloves).
-Keep the fatty ointment in a sealed glass jar, in a dark & cool place.

Note: you’d better handle the ointment wearing gloves (since the ointment is absorbed through the skin).”

Source: http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1893
Scroll down until you find a post by “genaro” he seems to be very knowledgeable.

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VernalSoul (598) (@vernalsoul) 9 years, 2 months ago ago

@jordan, Sounds like the perfect drug to take for Halloween.

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