Deception

Ray Butler (@trek79) 9 years, 5 months ago

I have been thinking about the various methods of deception we use in general life. Things that we think are normal but are actually a lie about ourselves. This subject comes to me specifically on the use of spell checkers, we use them every day but why? It is our image we consider, a certain level of professionalism, that we are not taken seriously if we present error in our presentation.
I liken it to the actual physical body presentation, as make-up is using a word we know but are unsure of the spelling, making sure it is spelled correctly is like plastic surgery. I makes me think we are showing off skills that we do not really possess. This could be interpreted as either deception or O.C.D.
What do you guys think of these trends and can you offer some other examples of this deception/O.C.D behaviour that you have noticed?

August 26, 2012 at 12:29 pm
Anonymous (2,654) (@) 9 years, 5 months ago ago

It definitely makes you think. When I was studying for my language exam I thought about all the written in stone, out of any historical logic rules I had to memorize in order to be correct in front of the people that are full of shit and don’t make anyone’s life better. That memorization is what makes things work. Some people invent plans and the biggest moron can become a big successful person just with memorizing, planning, creating a simple pattern, formula of doing something without even innovating something that would actually help someone else. I call these people a combination of books with no genuine personality or any sign of creative thought – but they are still smarter than those that give to the world their bad ideas. :)

“I am so clever that sometimes I don’t understand a single word of what I am saying.” Oscar Wilde

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Ian (38) (@geryon89) 9 years, 5 months ago ago

w/r/t spelling, i think it just shows that you care. there are times when it leads to confusion and a small spelling mistake could lead to a misunderstanding. not often, i imagine. but i think professionalism isnt getting it right the first time, but rather, showing that you are committed to creating a polished product.
it doesnt matter if you cant spell “inconvenience.” it just matters if you care enough to look it up so you dont end up writing “incontinence.” so i dont think spelling is a deceptive skill. i also dont think using a thesaurus or dictionary is deceptinve (as in: you didnt REALLY know that word!).

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Dnonymous (18) (@udntnome) 9 years, 5 months ago ago

@trek79, I don’t understand. If you acknowledge that you are correcting yourself then it’s not self deception. And if it’s written language that we’re talking about then correcting your spelling is just an effort to communicate your idea more clearly. The only way that I can see this being deceptive is if that is your intention.

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Anonymous (216) (@) 9 years, 5 months ago ago

[audio src="https://www.mindreadersdictionary.com/Ariely.mp3" /]

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R.V. Star (151) (@rickvonstar) 9 years, 5 months ago ago

@trek79, went to church with my family today, put some water on my hair and messed with it a little bit to make it seem like I didn’t just roll out of bed and show up, which was what I pretty much did

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Dan (890) (@danfontaine) 9 years, 5 months ago ago

@trek79, ‘Fixing’/repositioning my clothing when I feel they are giving a poor representation of the figure of my body.
Always having some sort conscious awareness of my posture and body movements – how people are seeing me.
Making sure the waves, flips, and folds of my hair are in an aesthetically pleasing arrangement every time I look in the mirror.
Adjusting the tone and character of my voice in attempt to be better received by specific people or groups.
Thinking about a text message for ~5x longer than I would think about what I’m saying if it were face-to-face.
Rereading internet posts before I send them to make sure they embody the type of person I’m trying to be perceived as.
Engaging in the act of greeting people I know who aren’t my friends as if they are my friends in attempt to make myself feel like I have friends.
Pretending I’m too cool for you.
Pretending I’m smarter than I am.
Pretending I’m different.

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Bryan Hellard (307)M (@xyver) 9 years, 5 months ago ago

@trek79, I’m not sure if this is a deception, but I’ve been noticing recently (more then recently, for the past year or so) that in social situations I am very much a mirror. I don’t know how to act, so I mirror what other people do. To an extent of course.

If everyone’s being nerdy, I be nerdy. If everyone’s being sporty, I be sporty. If everyone’s eating with a fork in their left hand, I put my fork in my left hand. Anything. I mirror others a lot, and I can notice that my responses change as well. I speak differently around different people.

Now, this may be a deception, because I am not acting “as myself”, but then I’ve asked myself the question “What am I? What are the actions that I take that are “mine” and not just a reflection? Or perhaps that fact that I am a reflector is what I am, that is what makes me me.”

Like I said, this works only to an extent, I never cave into peer pressure, so if I don’t want to do something, I don’t (for example, I’ll go to a party, and everyone will be drinking, but I don’t like drinking so no matter how many times people offer me a drink, I don’t take it).

This may not be totally on topic, nor what you wanted to talk about, but it’s what I thought of, and I hope it is of some interest to you.

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Jeslyn (594) (@jeslyntweedie) 9 years, 5 months ago ago

@trek79,

I was just talking about this with others actually.

But yes, lying; deceit. It is everywhere. It bleeds into everything. Anywhere you are where humans are trying to control other humans. Not always harmful, sometimes harmful–but deceit all the same. Whether it is for the greater good, or for greedy selfish reasons. Power, money, love, peace, growth, hate, war, industry, entertainment, government, history, society, civilization.

History in general struck me as interesting if viewed through a lens searching for accuracy, to eliminate deceit. It’s impossible.

Because all written recorded history is biased. Deceit in itself, a twisted form of a lie. Perhaps not always intentional, but unavoidable. It is why one must gather evidence from wide variety of different sources, drawing from every single possible relevant account to create a more complete unbiased picture and even THEN, that account will be slightly skewed by the one compiling it all.

It is a funny thing. It is a powerful thing. You lie to yourself, to others, you are lied to, it is everywhere.

It is perceived as a negative initially, but yes the deeper you go into deceit and lies–well there are many sides to anything that has to do with human subjectivity, even deceit itself. How ironic.

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Ray Butler (1,423)M (@trek79) 9 years, 5 months ago ago

@geryon89, Yes, I get that, I agree that when you show pride in yourself, such as wearing a suit to a job interview, it not only says you care for yourself but you respect the opinion others have about you. The smartest people can adapt to any given circumstance, if it is out of their comfort zone or not.
@udntnome, Not self deception, you know when you are not perfect at something, but what you present to others, how much time and effort is reasonable to put into something? At what point does the you that you know you are cease to exist and some picture perfect ideal of yourself is communicated? When you are strait up you are raw, your flaws hang out, but given a certain ammount of time and effort, you wash away all blemish.
@xyver, I tend to believe that conformity is not always a sell out of who you are. If I were to accidently find myself at a white power rally, I wouldn’t start screaming that they are ignorant, closeminded bigots, I’d say “Hey, how you doing? My mother called, needs my help, it’s her hip again, sorry I gotta go” See it is best some times when you do not rub people the wrong way, it makes life a little easier, and when you are doing something that draws unwanted attention then why do it if your principles can handle you not doing it?
@jeslyntweedie, That is a whole notha level on this issue. The fact that we each have our own degree of subjectivity, the way we see and react to things, what conforms to our belief structure and nature, what offends our sensibilities. It seems it may be an infinite spectrum of potential subjectivity and each of us are on a different point on that spectrum.
@beyond, @danfontaine, @rickvonstar, That’s the kind of stuff I mean, little vanity things that we do. Is this to put ourselves at ease about how we think others view us? Chicks go for the bad boy image so we spend 30 minutes working on making our hair look like bed-head, that’s classic Winger (see; Community-tv show). We are a nice little melting pot of vanity, O.C.D and insecurity, but hey it seems to work most of the time.
@mercurial, I like where you are going on chat rooms, I have a certain talent for writing so I can come off as nothing like what I am in reality, I’m a putz and a loser, I don’t talk to anyone, but on-line I can write for hours. Feel free to indulge us in your imagination on chat-rooms.

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Ray Butler (1,423)M (@trek79) 9 years, 5 months ago ago

@beyond, I know the type, I remember I found this guy hilarious at school, then I seen the movie Ace Ventura.

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Ray Butler (1,423)M (@trek79) 9 years, 5 months ago ago

@mercurial, Man of mystery aye? Deliberately enigmatic, that’s cool. You have a good one too.

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SBas (37) (@sabas4) 9 years, 5 months ago ago

@trek79 You say its like ‘showing off skills we don’t really possess.’ I agree totally and you’re right that the best evidence of it is on the internet (a great place for self advertising). Many have become so fixated with presenting themselves in a certain way; instead of just BEING in the moment, just expressing themeslves regardless of the few errors they make, upload whatever display picture they have of themselves without thinking to much about it, ‘liking’ what they truly like and understand (not a book that they have never read or band they barely listen to) etc

I suppose since we all use a raft of non physical communication methods now we tend to be a tad over sensitive about subjectivity and start fearing being ridiculed, criticised, misunderstood or not percieved the way we like. Since we cannot read behaviour, facial expressions etc on the internet, we just want to put out there the well edited, photoshoped and overly polished version of ourselves. People want good first impressions and that involves a fair bit of hard work on the internet compared in real physical situations.

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Jeslyn (594) (@jeslyntweedie) 9 years, 5 months ago ago

@trek79,

Ok fair enough, perhaps another thread will be good to talk about such things. With your topic here:

I think it makes perfect sense, this form of deception-if you’re talking about impressing and attracting members of the opposite sex specifically, survival, and reproduction.

Our survival basics are pretty much taken care of for us these days–it is not so difficult to find food, water, shelter. Requires little time in the grand scheme of things and amount of time we have to dedicate to survival. Excess assessment of this spills over into everything to do with attracting the best possible mate. How do we do that? Well the best possible mate is going to be different from person to person, genetic variance. But our outward appearance/way we present ourselves is a huge way to broadcast what we are to potential partners. Well, duh- haha.

As well as media influence skews our natural attraction, definitely–but it plays off the same instinctual concept. A good mate, a strong mate, very masculine, very feminine, or a good balance of both, the yin to your yang–clean, good hygiene, status symbols, money gathering, job security, attractiveness, persona–they’re all products of reproductive drive in my opinion. A way to prove our worth to the best potential people we can make babies with, within civilization.

It’s very interesting as it’s been this way for quite some time. Before it was important to marry your daughter off to the most well-off man who wanted her–that would ensure a good future for their children. A man with status and wealth looked for the most reproductively suitable wife–young, pretty, vital. They altered dress and mannerisms for attraction purposes as well and flaunted whatever status they had.

Now, well, yes, not quite that severe anymore; some people don’t even care. Very interesting.

Good stuff!

So on the internet? Well of course intelligence is a huge factor in attraction. Showcasing you know how to spell things correctly, or at least care it’s presented well does a couple things.

1. Boosts your credibility. i’m not GOnna lissen or even giv much of my time to sumone who types lyke this.

2. Vocabulary and sentence structure reflect education. Being educated is one of those status things I was talking about.

3. Makes you easy to understand. If you can condense your idea into an easily readable format–simplify-more people will be able to understand you. And we all want to be understood, as you’ve already said.

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Manimal (2,998) (@manimal) 9 years, 5 months ago ago

Posing, medicine, make-up, imagination, and such things are all self-deception.

But I don’t think there’s much wrong with self-deception in most cases, they only revolve around yourself.
Deceiving others is worse.

And one of the worst, and the most common, example of overlooked deception is…

“BEING NICE”

What is being nice really? Lying and pretending, in an attempt to get someone else to like you. When I say being nice I’m not talking about genuinely doing good deeds, I’m talking about SUPPLICATION.
It’s just a lame method for getting someone to like you, by means of “emotional blackmailing.”

When you’re “being nice,” you’re really just trying to get something from someone. When you avoid “hurting someone’s feelings,” when you laugh at jokes that aren’t funny, when you support someone who’s wrong, when you give compliments that aren’t really due, etc. YOU’RE JUST TRYING TO MANIPULATE SOMEONE INTO LIKING YOU.
And you do so because you want the advantages that brings you.

When you’re “being nice,” you see some kind of value in another person that you want to STEAL and LEECH. You want to ride on their wave, because you’re too lazy to put in the effort to develop value of your own.

That’s why the people who have no interest in LEECHING off of others NEVER do those things. That’s why they’re completely comfortable with “being a dick” to others, that’s why they have no problem “taking charge of the situation,” that’s why they don’t give a fuck about what others think of them.
They’re in a state of authenticity an self-expression, not trying to get something from others.

WHENEVER YOU GIVE A SHIT ABOUT WHAT SOMEONE ELSE THINKS OF YOU, YOU’RE JUST TRYING TO LEECH OFF OF THEM:
That’s what supplication is, leeching.

It’s pathetic and manipulative. That’s why people like me don’t tolerate when people do that shit.

“Nice” people are just fucking FAKE and pathetic, that’s why they always finish last.

Supplication is a disgusting behaviour

Peace and love
//Elion, “the heartless beast” (that’s what ego-driven supplication-hungry fucknuts call me. I find it amusing.)

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Jeslyn (594) (@jeslyntweedie) 9 years, 5 months ago ago

@manimal,

That is one side to “being nice”. The manipulative side.

Intention of the persona you project is important. If it’s for ourselves, fine. People can adjust their subjective views on us how they like, and we’re ok with that. If it’s for control…that gets very touchy.

You’ve made a good point. Not the only point though.

I am personally happiest when “being nice”. If people like me for it, cool. It’s not out of character for me, I’m not trying to manipulate anyone to like me, it’s in my nature, and it makes me happy.

Remember not to lump all “nice” people into that category. Some simply enjoy being nice, for their own self-deceptive reasons, perhaps, but not all have the intention of merely “getting people to like you”. You are happiest as a self-proclaimed ‘ass’. I am happiest as a self-proclaimed ‘nice’ person. You’re manipulating people with your ass-like qualities too you know, they’re viewing you in the way you wish to be viewed, as that is the persona you’re projecting. Your perspective is correct for you. Mine is correct for me.

Just another side of this coin you’ve tossed.

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Manimal (2,998) (@manimal) 9 years, 5 months ago ago

@jeslyntweedie, It’s not one side, it’s supplication in all its “glory.”

I’m not talking about being genuinely nice, I’m talking about supplicating. I think you missed the point.
What is it with women and “defending” the social code?

“And what’s with this stuff about me being happiest as a self-proclaimed ‘ass.’?”
That’s PREJUDICE! You don’t even know me. You’ve just formed that idea from your interpretation of me.
I’m a nice guy, really. But I don’t supplicate. And I don’t talk in “forceful” ways unless it’s called for.
And thanks for calling me an ass btw, that’s really nice of you… *eyes rolling like crazy* haha. I’m not being an ass, that’s just YOUR INTERPRETATION.
And I really don’t see how labelling someone an asshat goes along with you being such a nice person. It’s contradictory. See my point here?
You’re the one doing the name-calling.

I’m not manipulating anyone with my “ass-like qualities.” How someone reacts to that is up to them, I have no intention with my posts other than relaying a message.
The only form of manipulation I do, is accepting the role of the scapegoat, it’s the most effective and effortless form of manipulation, whoever is held responsible is given the power. A politician/monarch/authority is really just a scapegoat, that’s why they get so much power. I can not do that over the internet, and I have no wish to do that to anyone on this site.
And it’s really not me doing anything, it’s just people blaming me. I simply accept the role as the subject of others’ self-deception. But I don’t do that with people who are supposed to be great, such as you. It’s not nice to take the blame, it’s nice to call people out on their bullshit. Because that’s how you can REALLY help people grow.

As for the “it’s just in my nature” part, it’s really just a thought pattern. Nobody was created nice or mean, it’s all determined by the behaviour you choose to form.

Best regards

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Anonymous (0) (@) 9 years, 5 months ago ago

I’m enjoying reading this thread. (pointless comment)

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Jeslyn (594) (@jeslyntweedie) 9 years, 5 months ago ago

“//Elion, “the heartless beast” (that’s what ego-driven supplication-hungry fucknuts call me. I find it amusing.)”

You’ve signed yourself with this. You didn’t have to. Therefore you see something in it you want to broadcast to the people here, even if you only find it amusing, you accept it–you haven’t once denied it, except now, saying you’re actually a nice guy. Here though you embrace when people call you that. You defend why it’s all based in logical reasoning. You define it on a different level, one you do like. I call that self-proclaimed.

Do not stereotype me into the whole fucking population of ‘women’. This conversation is with me alone, I do not speak for any other woman but myself. That is ridiculous.

And I did not miss the point.

“That is one side to “being nice”. The manipulative side.”

Then I provided another side of it, as you did not provide that viewpoint, and people should consider both when contemplating the intentions of “nice” people.

I call people out on their bullshit daily. I am more diplomatic on this site than in the physical world, because it is the internet, and I believe in civil recorded conversation, and the progress of such things. Sometimes, with big egos, I have to abandon that thought to get anywhere, which is where I’m at with you. As my ego is in the same realm of size that yours is. Do not doubt this. It is is why you respond to me at length; because your ego has something to prove to mine and vice-versa. You would not give me the time of day if this weren’t the case, and I can say the same for you. Asserting dominance, or accepting equality in the ways that egos do. It is natural.

You have labeled yourself with the labels others have given you. You did that. It is your interpretation you are repeating and defending in your own way, and I am reacting to it. That is all.

Also, best regards. Hahaha.

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Ray Butler (1,423)M (@trek79) 9 years, 5 months ago ago

@jeslyntweedie, I was not criticizing or suggesting your idea was out of place in this thread, I think you may have just been the first to reach the conclusions that Mercurial was speaking of in the first response. What you said is perfectly legitimate and the at the root of the very superficial issue our everyday deceptions.

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Anonymous (2,654) (@) 9 years, 5 months ago ago

@manimal, I totally agree. Niceties are overrated. In fact, “nice” people are the most demanding like the world owes them for being born.

There are so many deceptions I could think of: smiley pictures, false confidence displayed by a social status, innocence, unquestionable authority, sexual superiority, unlimited potential, intimidating appearance, overestimated subjects, false labels, hard work, undisputed champions, surplus charges, titles of articles. I’m getting tired.

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Ray Butler (1,423)M (@trek79) 9 years, 5 months ago ago

@sabas4, We are such social beings by nature, so we tend to sacrifice certain other traits of our nature in order to fulfill that social desire. What you have said resounds wonderfully. It is being cool, part of the hip crowd, our social grouping is akin to the reproduction partner we seek, but obviously with different goals in mind.
@jeslyntweedie, Your comments call to mind a discussion I had some time ago, it was about “like attracting like” versus “opposites attract”. People need a bit of both in a partner, in some cases you could not be attracted to a person who is not strong in the certain areas that you are, and in other cases you seek a partner that is strong in areas you are weak.
@manimal, I totally get what you are saying about supplicating, that is such a huge factor in this discussion. It would be great if people could see this difference between the genuine nice and the manipulative nice, it is too often that people be the latter when the cold hard truth is really the nicest thing you could do in certain circumstances.

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Anonymous (2,654) (@) 9 years, 5 months ago ago

@mercurial, I stole that.

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Jeslyn (594) (@jeslyntweedie) 9 years, 5 months ago ago

@trek79,

I agree. You can’t be with someone exactly the same. The same in one way, and opposite in another. That is balance.

And yes that is what I was trying to do. To offer the genuine nice perspective so that people could draw on both for their conclusions. I was not discrediting manimal’s post, not at all. Just helping it along with another point of view, as credibility requires when discussing absolutely anything.

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Ray Butler (1,423)M (@trek79) 9 years, 5 months ago ago

@jeslyntweedie, Yes I have a saying, it is a metaphor “The structure that has not stood to the storm is dubious at best” which means that with scrutiny and debate, our statements are either proven or dissolved, if they can stand on their own merit or are just another unfounded opinion.

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Deepak (37) (@deepak87) 9 years, 5 months ago ago

In the Buddhist concept of dependent arising, no thing inherently has any true essence. Every thing (that we refer to as things that is) is just an every changing whole called consciousness. In my exploration, I have seen that this is so true for even the identity “I” that we refer to ourselves as. Everything that I think I am, my thoughts, my imagination, ideas etc., they are just pieces of reality that I rearrange using my mind. But the original pieces are again dependent on other things and so on. For example: say I think about my genes, I would say I got it from my parents, my parents would get it from their parents etc. Its a chain and I cannot find the original essence for just about anything. Consider scientists, most of the inventions stand on the shoulders of many other failed experiments etc. If someone did come up with an original idea, where did it come from? Did it come from the entity he calls ‘I’ or just from life itself?

Another very thought provoking idea is with regards to the present moment. The idea that there is really no doer. Say I am typing this, at the exact present moment when I am typing an unknown force is just making me type this and then very quickly in retrospect my mind claims that “I” have written this. Its almost like things happen in an unknowable dimension and we can only see ‘happenings’ vs. ‘doings’. In the topic discussed here, the question that comes to my mind is “who is nice?”

I see the tendency of being nice almost like a powerful social mime to get ‘status’. Its a win-win situation in some ways since you try to give the other person what he wants and get what you want in exchange for that. People are hypnotized into believing various things and getting them out of it is quite difficult since they have their entire social circle to validate their beliefs. Every person has a unique conditioning and with reasoning from my first two paragraphs, I cannot figure out why its like that. We have concepts for selfish, selfless, compassion, good/bad, right/wrong etc but they are different for different paradigms (cultures say). Its almost like I cannot point my finger at anything, since that things just existing in relationship to EVERYTHING else, all coming from an unknowable source at the present moment.

In my opinion, every human interaction stems from a basic need for stimulation, validation, acceptance, security, belonging. If the person has transcended all these needs and is operating purely from compassion and a transcendent world view, that would be quite fantastic, but most of the people we meet day to day are not in this category right.

I would love to hear other people’s opinions or arguments on the above. Sorry if I digressed a bit from the topic, but I thought these concepts would open up new dimensions to the discussion.

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