i just saw the discussion “The most fascinating thing about life is?”
and i read some replays saying “Free will”
Im still not sure if we have free will or not , because our environment and psychology and many things in life control us in away we don’t feel it or realize it
have a look at this
@cyberdream, To a degree, yes. I think of it like travelling on a train; there are a range of things you can do on board but you don’t control the train.
But yes, there are natural and psychological factors that determine our behaviour, the natural ones we don’t really have a say in except how we do them, eg: you can take a shit on the footpath or you can go to a bathroom but either way you have to shit.
But then there is the psychological factors; You have your experience, creativity and emotions to draw on, the way you use them, the balance you strike, is up to you, there is nothing that says you should prioritise any methodology over another, except your own senses of logic and justice or your cultural values conditioning.
@cyberdream, Well we can do what we want or do what we think is right in every situation, some situations it doesn’t matter which you do, and some it does. So freewill is just that, choosing between the distinct options, or finding an option of balance in between.
I say Freedom depends on self control; the less you have the more chances others will see you as a threat and either take your freedom or eliminate you. So that basically limits our freewill also, you can be considerate so as to perpetuate your freedom or you can trade off, take risks that may benefit you at a cost to others and maybe make yourself a target for retaliation.
@trek79, I have a query on this topic, on first glance I thought the question was on an existential level, its not, but I wish to ad this to the topic.
What if in reality we have absolutely no control of our lives, (we are not pawns), but everything we do is (or was) what we where always going to do, the proof of which is the fact that we did it. This theory terrifies many people, what do you think? My personal opinion is different but this theory always interested me.
@pappa86, I’ve never thought about if we were already in line to do all we are doing. I have a belief that is having de’ja’vu means you are heading in the right direction. I think that de’ja’vu originates from dreams you forgot upon wakeup but remember during the occurring moment.So by experiencing it you are headed in a direction that was placed out for you, or you placed out for yourself. It could be either way. You may not experience some dreams upon wakeup and may never experience they de’ja’vu that comes along with that dream by just choosing a different path to lead.
@pappa86, I have a theory called “Pre-Destiny After the Fact” where nothing is meant to happen until it does, at which point it was always meant to happen ;)
Some people believe we are doomed to behave according to our impulses and conditioning, but creativity is the variable that blows that theory out of the water, a person can completely ignore impulses and conditioning to manufacture a behaviour completely contrary to both if they want to at any time.
But then people believe that even if you do that it still isn’t evidence that you weren’t meant to do that in the first place, but I think people have no reason to be afraid either way, it doesn’t change anything whatever you believe, we remain linear beings.
@trek79, I like that. It’s similar to my belief in de’ja’vu in that what you reach in your life that you remember from a forgotten dream was just where you needed to be at that moment, then it is your turn to act on it. Sometimes it’s good to not mention your experiencing de’ja’vu too
Here is my belief;
Think of reality as a box.
Within the box, there are rules – physical laws that just are. They always are, and always will be. Gravity will always pull masses together. All phenomena can be accounted for by these rules. Since all rules are predictive, the universe is pre-determined. Therefore, within the box there is no free-will.
However, outside the box lays a magician. The magician can turn A to B and B to C, and nearly any other change s/he sees fit, but nobody in the box will know, since the rules changed – so have they, and they have adjusted to those rules. Just as if memories were replaced.
Therefore, all of us, in the box will never, ever see that we have ‘free-will’, however, upon leaving the box, it is very clear there are things that control the rules within the box, and subsequently, our consciousness, that seem to be outside of our mathematical rules. No more logic pertains outside the box, and the metaphor of the magician continues on.
“Take a moment to think about the context in which your next decision will occur: You did not pick your parents or the time and place of your birth. You didn’t choose your gender or most of your life experiences. You had no control whatsoever over your genome or the development of your brain. And now your brain is making choices on the basis of preferences and beliefs that have been hammered into it over a lifetime – by your genes, your physical development since the moment you were conceived, and the interactions you have had with other people, events, and ideas. Where is the freedom in this? Yes, you are free to do what you want even now. But where did your desires come from?”
― Sam Harris, Free Will
@ijesuschrist, the perspective of the infinite creator would have to be absolute nothingness to escape that loop and satisfy human logic. i know human logic maybe in the smallest box, but we are the magicians of this box, thus we are given the ability to comprehend anything.
@ijesuschrist, I have a similar theory, check this one out. I am moving away from the existential theory and pre ordained existence for a moment for this one.
You mentioned the box of reality, lets see it from a similar persecutive. Our entire existence is within a created structure, we created science for example, within science laws work, but only compared to other laws, actions, reactions etc.
Science is a theory, a creation, human logic, not absolute truth, and facts only hold up within its own structures.
Why do many people not believe in God? Because it may not be as logical as another explanation perhaps. But science isn’t absolute fact, its a creation to attempt explanations for reality, but it indadvertedly becomes reality.
So what of free will, self control, decisions?
Take TV for a metaphor, its an illusion of choice, you can choose but only from the stations available. You don’t have a real choice beyond what is available, so its limited. What free will do you have in a world that has been created by logic, logic being a limited human perspective and creation.
Are we only choosing from the limited selection on offer? And how do we become truly free from laws we believe are absolutely real?
@pappa86, Well the argument for determinism is that there are these laws that predict things. They can be used to predict most of the reactions of energy and matter to a given action.
They say we’re all just matter and energy, and therefore there is no reason to believe we have anything other than predictive qualities.
Yet nobody knows what the fuck consciousness is, so how can anyone really have a clue?