Does the universe allow free will?

Ponderer (@Ponderer) 7 years, 9 months ago

This is a question I’ve been pondering lately. Neurological studies are constantly showing that our consciousness can be broken down to chemical reactions. Still many people chuckle over the idea of not having free will. They may say things like

“If you can’t control your actions, why do you bother looking to each side when crossing the road?”

or

“But quantum mechanics shows that the world isn’t predictable.”

But these views fail to see the actual ramifications of free will. Thinking about this I constructed a proof of my own.

First consider the nature of information. When we observe the world the only thing we can be absolutely sure about is that there is information. Our senses can deceive us, but the information they give us must exist. This information is indistinguishable from equal information but exists separately. We also know that information can be combined to create new information. Like when we think or we see an event occur.

From here we can propose: Free will is when no external influence or force ultimately determines your choosing. The choosing part in your mind cannot be only influenced by the nature around it.

There are three possibilities either everything is predetermined, everything is undetermined, or somewhere in between. If something is undetermined it can not have an information link to anything in this universe. If it had it would be the combination of two other forms of information.

Free will is only conceivable in a (slightly) undetermined universe, or else every choice would just be the consequence of the previous state of the universe. Then you can imagine that a “random” fluctuation in a particle is your interaction with the universe to make that choice, but as I said that information could not have a link to this universe. Therefore it is impossible that your consciousness created that information. Hence an undetermined universe does not allow free will either. No universes (of information) allow free will.

Do you agree? Did I miss something in my (shortened) proof? Please reply :)

December 22, 2014 at 8:14 pm
DavidEckMusic (0) (@DavidEckMusic) 7 years, 9 months ago ago

well i am telling you that there is a personal God… God is a real entity with a consciousness similar to ours, if ours is possible, why wouldn’t his be possible? if we can all think individually but are collectively connected, who is to say that that higher power, God, isn’t also an individually thinking entity that is also universally connected and the source of us… Proof of Heaven-Eben Alexander.. Read it.. nuff said…. That being said…

I think we have free will to an incredibly large extent and the universe will not stop you from fucking yourself over, however, i do think that certain puzzle pieces fall into place for specific purposes of joy unity and happiness and i am sure a few miracles have happened to save peoples lives or just to put things into perspective.. i could tell you some fucking crazy stories that i will most definitely publish of me tying together multiple acts of the universe that are completely in tune with everything that i am thinking at the time from the TV perfectly responding to my thoughts to just like everyday people people person person interaction type realistic shit that any normal human could actually wrap there head around. Its always to deliver a message to me.. One time my message was “Psychedelic Prophet” and “you can talk to the dead” the first one coming from a TV show that randomly showed up, well not randomly, but just think about that word, on my friends DVR, and then shortly after i thought my friend said “you can talk to the dead” and i have fucking seen my grandma in the mirror when tripping and i pretty much watched her pass away. The universe is beautiful and i am still figuring it out myself.. One love. More stories to come. And i have witnesses too lol

[Hidden]
DavidEckMusic (0) (@DavidEckMusic) 7 years, 9 months ago ago

my friend did NOT say talk to the dead.. and right there.. boom… perception is everything.. i perceived it as such.. why did i perceive it as such?> he didnt say [email protected]!!! why did i hear it that way>???? its that type of shit my friend.. the in betweens.. the grey areas… the personal relationship with God and the universe realm. the type of shit only you really understand.. but if people are open enough to it can also understand it and experience similar things

[Hidden]
Almeida (304) (@xetado) 7 years, 9 months ago ago

“Free will is when no external influence or force ultimately determines your choosing. The choosing part in your mind cannot be only influenced by the nature around it.”
How can you objectively determine if something is compelling your choices or not?

[Hidden]
DavidEckMusic (0) (@DavidEckMusic) 7 years, 9 months ago ago

Well you can read signs… You know… A seed grows into a tree… But there is no sign of the seed.. a wise proverb i heard recently.. i forget exactly where… but that seed still was the source… and how the heaven does the seed turn into a giant tree anyways? lol… we are gifted with this intellect and i follow the signs.. of course to you, someone who doesn’t even know what i look like, let alone who i am as a spirt or person, it sounds off, but like i said, you are not me, i am not you, i have cultivated a personal relationship with God that i hope to only bring me closer to all humans and to eliminate favortism and bias… That could be a whole nother discussion.. I follow the signs and too many things happen piece after piece after piece to create this bigger puzzle that seemingly contradicts coincidences and you are able to see this higher purpose behind things and EVEN IF YOU HAPPEN TO BE WRONG at one specific time… One specific thing that you think was Divinely Intervened, you still have a grasp on the idea that Divine Intervention is a possible thing, and i think watching out for signs, is only going to take you one step closer to actually being able to interpret those signs.. i wasn’t born thinking signs existed.. I grew into it.. I went to a Catholic school for 12 years and i didn’t learn a thing about God, well, i didn’t understand a thing about God until years after leaving, and i actually transferred because i thought that what they preached, and practiced, were too different! Some religions put themselves on a pedastool, im in tune with reality and nature, the actual essence of existence, we all are naturally, we fucking exist, but there is a state that some people have where they just are more in tune. Psychics are legit too.. Look into David Icke, a psychic that he incredibly coincidentally found, if you want the story ill tell you, basically God fucking possesed him and led him to this lady that predicted his world wide fame and his best selling books.. He is changing the world and exposing our fraudulent government. Anybody can say what they want, I used to try and disprove shit too, then i realized, holy shit, what if it is possible? what if it is true? and then signs just kept pointing and pointing.. im going to go ahead and predict my future fame as well… that doesn’t make me some magical jeenie.. predicting the future can be as simple as following road signs right in front of you, and can go as deep as a incredible intuition that is either acquired over time, felt in one moment, or possibly divinely intervened, your tiny human mind certainly is not going to disprove anything really unless scientifically and physically based, and i have a tiny human mind as well so don’t feel bad hahah.

[Hidden]
DavidEckMusic (0) (@DavidEckMusic) 7 years, 9 months ago ago

and its sad because this is the point of the conversation where most people would go, oh you believe in reptillians too? and its just like stfu i never said anything about reptillians.. I find the fakeness behind arguments that are just trying to win another argument and pad their ego… I am so real, the arguments i get in, i do not lose, because A.) either i am willing to admit i am wrong or B.) i am so in tune with reality, that anything that i say, will never be false! i honestly express my feelings and i do not claim to no anything i do not know and i know what my true intentions are! i have nothing to hide from anybody and would never waste my energy trying to redefine someones image of me, to better fit their description of a good human being, or whatever they strive to see in me, whether its a business man, or someone that helps them profit.. I am me and am so much more divine than any image that attempts and strives to portray my essence. People can talk, people can move, people can do whatever they want, i want justice, i want what is best for people, i want people to be free and happy.. David Eck for president… lol.. one love… Politics are corrupted.. Ill stick with music for now! and blogs! lol

[Hidden]
Ponderer (2) (@Ponderer) 7 years, 9 months ago ago

How can you objectively determine if something is compelling your choices or not?

Well the information would still exist. You cannot know the nature of the cause of something, but you do know that the actual change exits. Therefore the cause must contain this information. Similarly if you were to make a choice any external influence would, in the act of influence, transfer information. Therefore the existence of the information proves the interference.

This way any internal or external influence can be determined.

[Hidden]
Almeida (304) (@xetado) 7 years, 9 months ago ago

Even if this information is available, how can you be sure we would be able to notice it?

[Hidden]
Ponderer (2) (@Ponderer) 7 years, 9 months ago ago

The information exists in the universe. A consequence of this is that it must interact with other information, like your consciousness. Now there could be an “evil spirit” or any unfortunate circumstances preventing you form interacting with this information and therefore not notice it. All this can make it very hard to identify the information, but not impossible. Even the existence of such a “blocking wall” proves that something is being blocked.

Here’s an example. Lets say there is an apple on a table. Every time you try to look at the table something prevents you. If you try to obtain the information through a third party, like through a mirror, you will also be prevented. It would be like the apple didn’t exist for you. One day however, someone takes a bite of the apple. It is not possible to fundamentally hide this interaction from you since it prevents information, the person, from existing. As an apple expert you quickly understand that the changes in the person can only come from eating an apple. Hence you can conclude that there is an apple on the table even though it is impossible for you to experience it.

This can of course be so extremely hard that no human would discover it, but it would not be impossible.

[Hidden]
Almeida (304) (@xetado) 7 years, 9 months ago ago

Don’t think that it’s safer admitting this information just isn’t real, instead of saying that there is a “blocking wall”? Besides, you can’t be a 100% sure that a certain consequence is originated from a certain cause, especially when we’re talking about not-so-empirical things.

[Hidden]
Ponderer (2) (@Ponderer) 7 years, 9 months ago ago

The “blocking wall” just represents an extreme case. There is no reason to suspect one in everyday life, but it is still possible for one to exist. It does not, however, represent evidence for the lack of certain information. You cannot say that because there is no evidence for a theory there must be a “blocking wall” preventing its discovery. It’s also important to remember that the information is the changing part of a substance.

If you see an event occur, like two balls colliding on a pool table, you may expect their movement paths to change because of the collision. This assumption may come from the balls proximity in time and space. Still this is poor evidence for actual causation as stated by David Hume. However I believe the assumption of causation originates from the continuation of information. When the balls collide they continue on a path that represents a combination the initial information of the balls. Therefore the continuation of the information shows the relationship between cause and effect. This demonstrates the empirical process since information is strictly empirical.

[Hidden]
DavidEckMusic (0) (@DavidEckMusic) 7 years, 9 months ago ago

and its sad because this is the point of the conversation where most people would go, oh you believe in reptillians too? and its just like stfu i never said anything about reptillians.. I find the fakeness behind arguments that are just trying to win another argument and pad their ego… I am so real, the arguments i get in, i do not lose, because A.) either i am willing to admit i am wrong or B.) i am so in tune with reality, that anything that i say, will never be false! i honestly express my feelings and i do not claim to no anything i do not know and i know what my true intentions are! i have nothing to hide from anybody and would never waste my energy trying to redefine someones image of me, to better fit their description of a good human being, or whatever they strive to see in me, whether its a business man, or someone that helps them profit.. I am me and am so much more divine than any image that attempts and strives to portray my essence. People can talk, people can move, people can do whatever they want, i want justice, i want what is best for people, i want people to be free and happy..

David Eck for president… lol.. one love… Politics are corrupted.. Ill stick with music for now! and blogs! lol

[Hidden]
Filip (2,818)M (@filipek) 7 years, 9 months ago ago

This is a philosophical question that will never get a conclusive answer in my opinion. I do believe we have free will and we are responsible for the choices we make.

[Hidden]
Ponderer (2) (@Ponderer) 7 years, 9 months ago ago

Well if there is nothing fundamentally wrong with my proof it is quite conclusive about the question. It would consist of the same level of fundamental correctness as any mathematical theorem. 1+2=3 is determined by the nature of 1 and 2 onto the nature of addition (+) and is undeniably correct if you accept the axioms. Similarly the nature of information disproves the possibility of free will. The only axioms here are that information exist and that it only can interact with other information. However I still think that we are responsible for the choices we make, even without free will. This is because from a subjective perspective you are undeniably making choices. It does however show us that punishment should be replaced by rehabilitation (Bad actions should have consequences though). Hopefully this realization will demonstrate the fundamental flaw of humans and the futility of hate, anger and envy and the necessity of love, compassion and forgiveness.

[Hidden]
Filip (2,818)M (@filipek) 7 years, 9 months ago ago

The problem is that you cannot prove your own proof. It is an assumption based on the fact that nothing is undetermined in this Universe, but you can’t prove that. I believe that nothing is completely predetermined and nothing is completely undetermined. Every action is a consequence of previous actions, but that does not mean that every previous action has only one possible follow up action. If that would be the case, it would mean it is predetermined, however I still believe that I have the free will to choose whether or not I follow action A or action B.

[Hidden]
Ponderer (2) (@Ponderer) 7 years, 9 months ago ago

Actually my proof does not assume that nothing is undetermined. It only relies on the assumption that everything in the universe is essentially information and that this information can only interact with other information. This is true in both a predetermined and an undetermined universe. That an interaction between two instances of information can have several outcomes simply means that new information is introduced to the universe.

[Hidden]
John (29) (@JDrifter) 7 years, 9 months ago ago

chicken wings

[Hidden]
Filip (2,818)M (@filipek) 7 years, 9 months ago ago

So free will is possible?

[Hidden]
Ponderer (2) (@Ponderer) 7 years, 9 months ago ago

No.

As I stated in the last paragraph of my post the newly introduced information cannot originate from your consciousness or anything in the universe. Essentially you cannot be a cause without being an effect of something.

[Hidden]
Filip (2,818)M (@filipek) 7 years, 9 months ago ago

It does not have to be new information, I still have free will if I can choose from 2 pieces of existing information. Free will does not necessarily mean that it has to be new information. If I have the choice to choose from 2 pieces of existing information, and I choose one above the other, I still have free will

[Hidden]
Ponderer (2) (@Ponderer) 7 years, 9 months ago ago

You don’t really choose between two pieces of information, but rather two actions. The information represents the changing part of the universe when you perform that action.

For example when you choose between strawberry and chocolate ice cream the action is your order and the information is the ice cream flavor.

[Hidden]
Filip (2,818)M (@filipek) 7 years, 9 months ago ago

Yes between two (ore more) different kinds of actions indeed. So then I believe in that way I still have free will.

[Hidden]
Ponderer (2) (@Ponderer) 7 years, 9 months ago ago

The point is that the action is causally linked to the past through information. In danger of repeating myself here, but a choice is a causal process. Anyway, free will is not that important in everyday life. It’s a methaphysical question.

[Hidden]
DavidEckMusic (0) (@DavidEckMusic) 7 years, 9 months ago ago

hahahahah…. i think of course we have free will… but to what degree.. in North Korea they are fucking slave.s.. Here in america.. Consumer Slaves.. You go to jail for smoking a joint… AND ALSO.. when you get into emotions… How much control do you have over your anger? that determines your free will because if you have loose control than you have no free will over your emotions, they control you, but if you are an ascended Zen mastermind like myself(: hahaha just kidding THEN you can control your mind and you can willingly decide what you think and how your emotions transmit through your actions… heroin addicts have the free will of quitting but just cant most of the times… but we have the free will to never try heroin.. this world is tricky.. emotions and instinct play a big roll.. we must eat to survive.. so therefore that we HAVE to do, we cant willingly not eat and plan to survive.. you know?

[Hidden]
DavidEckMusic (0) (@DavidEckMusic) 7 years, 9 months ago ago

decisions are decisions but they can be so easily manipulated.. you can willingly choose to do something, because someone lied to you about the truth, and you are acting off that based truth, but you also can willingly choose to dig deeper, but some people r so damn manipulative! you have the free will to decide how you look at situations ESPECIALLY if you have your nutrtion and happiness and sleep and excercise in check.. makes me sad they feed kids “anti depressants” when that shit legit increases suicidal tendencies and has directly been linked to school shootings on over 60 occasions and like no school shootings have ever been by sober non medicated kids.. its fucking nuts this country and our world but smart people like us will make the difference! do [email protected]! if you want!

[Hidden]
DavidEckMusic (0) (@DavidEckMusic) 7 years, 9 months ago ago

Ok i am totally feeling you YES JAILS ARE SO BAD… met a few guys that just got out of jail recently and they say people get deep in there n just read n shit. But yes man we have free will only to the degree of the variables around us.. I cannot have sex with a brazillian woman right now because, im in america and i dont know one brazillian woman anywhere near me at all! i can imagine it! i can masturbate! i cannot do this, but i can also accept the fact that im just chillin and i dont need a woman(: thats how you can achieve self dependence n overcome lust, and also seeing the pain and misery that lust can cause to people helps and how self inflicting and gratifying all at the same time it seems, but that isnt real gratification, sex was made for birth anyways, and people obviously diminish the divinity throughout the 1,000s of fucking colleges and 1,000s of degrading hip hop mixtapes that influence such behavior.. im 18 and i go to Arizona State University one of the top party schools so trust me i know well,, thats not why i know, but ASU sure has a lot of that! its sad.. people are so misguided and look to validate themselves through peer groups and sex… i luckily have utilized my God given free will and transcended such immature idealogies thought patterns and behaviors and you my friend are fucking brilliant… well done… may this convo continue

[Hidden]
DavidEckMusic (0) (@DavidEckMusic) 7 years, 9 months ago ago

hahahahah…. i think of course we have free will… but to what degree.. in North Korea they are fucking slave.s.. Here in america.. Consumer Slaves.. You go to jail for smoking a joint

[Hidden]
DavidEckMusic (0) (@DavidEckMusic) 7 years, 9 months ago ago

decisions are decisions but they can be so easily manipulated.. you can willingly choose to do something, because someone lied to you about the truth, and you are acting off that based truth, but you also can willingly choose to dig deeper, but some people r so damn manipulative! you have the free will to decide how you look at situations ESPECIALLY if you have your nutrtion and happiness and sleep and excercise in check.. makes me sad they feed kids “anti depressants” when that shit legit increases suicidal tendencies and has directly been linked to school shootings on over 60 occasions and like no school shootings have ever been by sober non medicated kids.. its fucking nuts this country and our world but smart people like us will make the difference! do [email protected]! if you want!

[Hidden]
John (29) (@JDrifter) 7 years, 9 months ago ago

Well I’m gonna go out on a limb and say we do have free will. I’m not going to prove my thesis, because I don’t make matters more complicated than they have to be (Scientists/Americans in general). And I don’t think anything can really be proven, just assumed, based on observations. It’s all wordplay. I look at my arm lying on my desk, and I say, “I am going to lift that arm in 3-2-1,” and I lift it. That, my friends, is free will. And that is enough to convince me.

[Hidden]
Ponderer (2) (@Ponderer) 7 years, 9 months ago ago

I’m not on a mission, but I do think your standpoint is unambitious. I’m neither a scientist nor an American, but I believe avoiding the complex is a mistake. In fact reducing a statement to the least possible assumptions is a process of simplification, not elaboration. Actually, an important observation is that from a subjective perspective it will seem like free will is present. This is what you experience when you lift your hand.

[Hidden]
Viewing 6 reply threads
load more