Free will is not free will atall.
it exists within the belief that your will is yours.
which is to say that-
you are bound to knowledge.
consider that now i present you with a ledge.
this ledge is now your knowledge.
how will you choose to jump off of no ledge?
the truth is that you cant,
because your knowledge is limited, and therefore so are you.
it is not your choice to jump off of knowledge.
gravity already decided whether or not you will fall-
it was here time before you to have made the choice for you
this is not to say that you are hopelessly bound to your knowledge.
though you will be if you believe it,
just as you will be free in your will to be- if you believe it.
cheers- as did i
there was never competiton.
and i refuse to stand for anything else-
but we stood together from the begining, happy to have to question your knowledge and refirm that you were right all along-
for we all were before we started asking questions. Right?
idk, left along time ago ;)
free will is illusion. you cant control what to think, you can only notice thoughts when they come. everything controls your thoughts but “you”. lol
Indubitably! I’m just glad I started the discussion with two like-minded people instead of some of the other short-fused members. While I enjoy their input to topics, it’s just hard to get anywhere in a conversation when they blindly deny every other perspective than their own. Glad to have met ya dudes!
@hollowinfinity, aaa but actually its most important :P. conciousness olso. when you realize what ‘you’, conciousness really is you will see that free will is fake. you cant control what will you think. how can you control what will come to your mind? you can only see it when it comes and you can think that you affected that but you really didnt.
@bono95zg, Maybe you cannot control the entire thought process, but you can control certain parts of it for sure. I can, at any time I want to, think about the color green and let that engulf my consciousness. I can do that, but if I don’t, thoughts will happen to me either way. I can even create new words! Like I said, it’s like breathing. It’ll happen either way, but you can make the choice to improve it.
@bono95zg, When you talk about colors, you run into a lot of walls. You cannot even describe the color green, or be sure what I call blue isn’t your green. I don’t make the choice that trees exist, but I have the choice to think about them as I wish.
I can’t control the color green, but I can think about it as I wish. Best example to show that I can choose with colors, is the existence of art.
@hollowinfinity, I think what bono is asking is who is that thing that is “choosing to think about green”.
You say that choice to think about green came FROM you, while he is immplying that choice came TO you.
No one is debating you can consciously be aware of your thoughts and feel like you are controlling them. But really, when you look back to the origin, it becomes a lot murkier. You “choose” think think about green. But what put the thought in your head to choose to think about green in the first place? If you choose to think about green, it means you first choose to think about making the choice to think about green.
There comes a point when you work backwards through that thought process, that the origin thought did not come from any conscious decision you made but rather just “popped” into your head. Every “conscious” thought stems from an unconscious thought.
Now, this isn’t even addressing the point that what you think of as being a conscious choice has not been proven by scienctific research to actually be a choice at all. In fact, there is research that says when we consciously perceive making a decision, that perception actually occurs AFTER neurons and electrical signals have already begun to fire. For example, I tell you to raise your right hand whenever you feel like it. 5 seconds later, you “decide” to raise your hand. However, the neurons had already begun to fire signaling your hand to raise BEFORE you consciously decided to raise your hand (on average about half a second before you consciously feel like you made the decision!).
The implications is that the “decision” you feel you made was not the cause of you raising your hand, it was actually an effect of neurons firing in the brain, just as the hand raising itself was. Both thought and action are the effect of activity in the brain that is out of our control.
That’s what the science seems to be telling us. That we do not make decisions, we simply perceive to make them. Our thoughts and decisions are merely the “story” we tell ourselves in order to make sense of what is happening.
@alljuicedup, Okay I can see that. Like, yeah I thought about green because of the question on this website posed, and he wrote that last post because of this thread being created on this post. So all the choices made in this website would not even have been able to happen had this site not been created.
I mean, everything- down to our personalities even- could just be an infinite feedback loop, where each person is a mirror, and we *are* the collective reflection of everything being reflected on us.
But- where we may notice we made the choice some time after neurons have fired, you still cannot deny the fact that observation effects the exterior world. One man in America studying a particle will notice different attributes about this particle, and a guy studying the same one in China, will come up with different attributes still. Atomic theory itself is incomplete and not workable without the observer. So, without the observer, there wouldn’t be a human body to begin with! What does that mean? Not a fucking clue.
haha yeah, I feel like that was a bit of a tangent :P
Don’t get me wrong, even if we lack free will, that does not make our existence and our perceived decisions any less important. There seems to be this stigma that losing free will means losing meaning, but that is not so. We still have to life life.
In fact, it changes very little because, as I said earlier, even if you don’t believe you have free will, you still can’t help but feel like you have it, which is the important thing in all of this.
What it may do however, is make everyone a little more relaxed/less stressed out and a little more epathetic. Afterall, what will happen will happen, all I am here for is to experience it and enjoy the ride. There was never anything that could happen but that which happened, so worrying about it doesn’t make sense.
And as for hating other people and seeing them as evil, it just doesn’t make as much sense either if you don’t believe in free will. Even the worst people in the world are merely victims of a deterministic universe. They didn’t choose to be who they were anymore than you choose to be who you were. We are all along for the same ride.
That’s not to say we shouldn’t have a judicial system and prisons and what not. It’s just that you can’t help but view it in a different light. It’s not about punishment for instance, its about preventing someone who is a potential danger to society from harming other human beings. But the whole idea of hating them for it loses meaning, which imo is a good thing. The less hate in the world the better!
@hollowinfinity, “Regardless of how a thought comes to you- are you not always given the option to either A) continue to think about it, or B) stop thinking about it?”
Therein lies the debate… it FEELS like you have the option. No one will question that.
But as I said before, despite what we feel, science has said for a while now that even when we feel like we’re making a decision, the neurons have already actually begun firing in our brains.
If it was truly our decision to choose what we thought about, the thought would be the prime mover, the first cause of action. The thought would cause the electrons to fire and not the other way around. But science says it is not. The research says the thought comes after electrical signals that are out of our control begin firing (afterall, what are thoughts but the result of signals in our brains).
So then how could we be deciding anything if what we perceive as a decision is merely a result of something out of our control (namely impulses in our brains).
Thoughts don’t create those electrical signals, thoughts are the result of those signals.
@hollowinfinity, no option given :P
until you realize that you started to think about it youre not given option to choose, but when you do realize it becomes a different thought in your head (the thought about how you think about option -to continue or not to continue to think). so you didnt really made choise- that other thought did. and you can to into infinity like that.
I can definitely see your argument and reasoning. It makes a lot of sense, but I personally do not believe that consciousness arises via the brain/body function. It may be the case that the electric signals begin firing before we think about it in the way we are used to, but that doesn’t have to mean that we didn’t create the firing of the electric signals. The brain is very complex, and consciousness doubly so. It kind of touches on my idea of conceptual worlds we have. We have language as a complicated form of concepts, but underneath language there is another world of concepts in symbols and pictures. This could go on infinitely inwards too, much like it can go infinitely outwards contemplating the choice of a thought.
@hollowinfinity, and I love that you can think that!
As I said at the top of page 2, “I like to think the universe is far grander and more awesome than we could ever possibly fathom. To believe that we could understand all the intricacies and complexities with our limited minds is the epitome of arrogance. It’s simply not possible to be able to comprehend the entirety of the whole (the universe) from a part (the mind). You can see that from a sheer logical perspective.”
So while right now I can say I don’t believe we have free will, I will never profess to say just because I believe it to be so, it is. To the best of my knowledge and as someone interested in the scientific side of things, that is the way I lean. But no matter what my opinion, or no matter how solid the “facts”, we can never truly know the truth. Or maybe we can… I guess I can’t know that for certain either :P