"Free will" must be probabilistic or random.

 JonH (@IJesusChrist)5 years, 10 months ago

There are three documented events in the universe:

1. Determined – That which physics and science as a whole are famous for understanding. It simply means the future events can be predicted given past events.

2. Probabilistic – The same as determined, however there are multiple outcomes from one event, and essentially all share a statistical probability, that when summed, equal 100%. 

3. Random – science is still unsure if completely random events exist in nature, but would contain events that have no bearing on previous events.

So our “free-will” must be one of these three things. If you can come up with another category, I’ll give you a cookie, but I hope you see that whatever you come up with will have to fall into these three categories.

If free-will is determined:

Well, this is <i style=”font-weight: bold;”>actually what most people think of when they think of free-will. That you alone have the power to decide your fate, and you can make decisions regardless of what other people think or do or say. This is not a real device for differentiating free-will from determinism! When people think they have the “free-will” to do what they want, what they are actually idealizing is that <i style=”font-weight: bold;”>other people can’t affect their decisions. This is not different than determinism, due to the paradigm that your decision to not be affected by others has already been determined. Our society’s ideology of “freedom” has become synonymous with “free-will”, which at a philosophical level, are very different concepts.

If free-will is probabilistic:

Well, this is probably (hah) the best explanation for our concept of free-will. Given any event or situation, we have a variety of ways to respond to it. However, our responses are necessarily finite, and they will also, necessarily be based on past events. So, in a way, this fulfills both ideas of determinism and free-will. But! Wait! How do the outcomes possible get ‘chosen’? I.E. given a certain event, how is the ‘list’ of outcomes generated? To end an endless loop of probabilities, these choices we get to choose from are thusly going to have to be random or determined. If they are random, we run into a problem of chaos which I’ll get to next. Thus, our ‘options’ for every outcome must be determined! But the real issue here is if everything is a probability, where does your “free-will” come into play? This eventually ends with the conclusion that your future is basically a dice roll.

If free-will is random:

Well there isn’t much room for free-will, is there? Everything that comes out of your mouth is going to be random!

So where does this leave us? It gives us a paradox:

Either free-will is an illusion, and all things are determined, <i style=”font-weight: bold;”>or free-will is probabilistic, in which case we’re basically given a set of choices we can make, much like the game Fable, Skyrim, or Fallout: 

“Do you want to eat the steak? [Yes] [No]”

“No.”

“Wow, you’re a feisty one!”

And so, our universe is born at the shake of a dice!

To take this further into paradoxical thoughts

Perhaps one day we will devise a computer so powerful it can predict the future – the stock market will cease to exist, natural disasters will no longer necessarily kill the unknowing. All problems of the unknown future will be essentially resolved – with the exception of one: “How do I die?”

The computer must take into account it’s own perturbation to your existence. After much computing, a small ticker tape comes out with the phrase “July 20th, 2035 after accidentally consuming a poisonous berry.”

Easy enough, you look the computer in the eye, and shoot yourself. (Or, with less violence, you just restrain from eating anything that day).

Tah dah! You’ve defied the future, you’ve defied determinism. 

One of two possibilities must be true for this to occur:

Free will is real or prediction of the future, in which the prediction itself influences the outcome, is impossible.

Well! There you have it. I guess at this point you get to decide (HAH, again) what you believe to be the truth.

August 4, 2015 at 8:31 am
heysteve (5) (@dumb) 5 years, 10 months ago ago

<div>A computer within the system to predict the systems future is like an algorithm that requires itself as one of the variables.</div><div>
</div><div>Meaning that, in order to get results the variables need to be processed. One of the variables is an algorithm and it needs to be calculated. In order to get results the variables need to be processed. One of the variables is an algorithm…</div><div>
</div><div>Even in a closed system a future prediction based on simulating reality is limited by the precision with which the initial state can be measured, and chaotic systems are characterized by a strong dependence on the initial conditions.</div><div>
</div><div>It might be possible to reverse engineer until the future prediction seems accurate, but 100% accuracy can’t be proven even if it’s statistically true.</div><div>
</div><div>We cannot prove anything true, we can only prove something false. This is just the reality we live in.</div><div>
</div><div>Such technology could still be used for amazing things, like studying possible future technologies or use future predictions to try to reach the better future.</div><div>


</div><div>
</div><div>I took what you said and compressed it:
</div><div>https://www.highexistence.com/topic/dumb-question-about-free-will/</div&gt;

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Mike Wuest (510) (@mikeyw829) 5 years, 10 months ago ago

<font color=”#283235″ size=”3″>Too heady. You’ve trapped yourself in a logic loop.  </font>

If you read the bible, it’s clear people many thousands of years ago made pretty accurate “predictions.” There is nothing mystical about this. Humanity has run on a linear program. Therefore, the end result was written in from the beginning. Ready “The Tower of Babel” story for instance.  

A linear path is predictable. Things have been linear for a long time.  People who were considered prophets were merely picking up on patterns, and could extrapolate into the future based on the current subtle trends they were seeing.  This is because humanity has really not had any free will to any large degree up to this period in time.  

If you can see these trends, it is because you have at least a degree of free will.  And you see the inevitability of a certain outcome for the current society we live in that people had predicted a long time ago.  There’s nothing prophetic about it.  

But that doesn’t mean we don’t have the capacity for it.  Breaking with a linear trend of past conditioning is what makes free will possible. Operating on programming and conditioning takes away free will. Being a product of your environment and society just makes you a tool to propagate the linear path because you are a slave to the momentum of the past.

You say all your decisions are based on past experiences.  While this is true for the vast majority of people, it is not true absolutely. But the thing is, as long as you believe it to be true, it will be true for you.  Acting spontaneously from the present circumstances is possible.  In this case, you jump off the linear path.

It is only when your mind is free from the thousands of years of momentum and conditioning that you have any degree of free will. Otherwise, you’re just a really advance computer operating on programs and doing predictable things.   

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heysteve (5) (@dumb) 5 years, 10 months ago ago

Hello Mikey W

What you have said in a nutshell:
::Free will is freedom from causality and if you do not have freedom from causality you do not have free will. Also believing in having free will makes you have free will.

I do not understand the mechanics of ‘believing in having x makes you have x’.
if x is free will, then according to you the statement is true.
if x is puppy, I do not see how this is true.

how is x determined in this context?

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Mike Wuest (510) (@mikeyw829) 5 years, 10 months ago ago

Hey Steve (ha),
It’s not that believing in free will allows you to have it necessarily.  Most people assume themselves to be free-thinking, autonomous human beings who make their own choices.  But as I look around me, I see that this clearly is not the case.

Believing you have free will does not mean that you’ll have it necessarily.  But believing that you are enslaved to your past conditioning automatically eliminates you from experiencing what free will is.  

But oftentimes we are limited and imprisoned by the erroneous beliefs we have. If I believe I am unworthy of certain things because of beliefs I have formed based on past experiences, that belief will have a relative truth in my life and will dictate how I experience it. 

Your beliefs dictate what is true for you (to a much larger degree than people realize). And yes, many people have grandiose beliefs that still are not true regardless of the fact that they believe them.  That’s because a belief is not the experience of the real thing. You don’t have to believe in something to experience it.  I don’t have to believe fire is hot to experience the fact that it is hot when I touch it. I don’t have to believe in free will to know that it exists.

The unconditioned aspect of ourselves is what allows us to have free will. Creativity, spontenaity, thoughtfulness, common sense, the ability to see the big picture, etc. all stem from this  The conditioned aspect of ourselves is what prevents free will.  Conditioned thoughts and ideas are based on past experiences. Unconditioned thoughts come out of the spontaneity of the moment.  
Also, the unconditioned aspect of yourself has nothing to do with your thoughts or beliefs. But thoughts and beliefs can stem from it.  

And you cannot logically deduce through math or science whether or not free will exists.  Nor can you deduce it through philosophy or thinking in general, because it has nothing to do with thinking.  So really, I cannot prove to you through logical reasoning that it exists.  I can merely point in the direction

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heysteve (5) (@dumb) 5 years, 10 months ago ago

Hello again Mikey W!

If I understood you correctly, what you are saying is
:: Free will exists, I cannot prove it, nobody can, but because I believe in free will it exists.

You might have meant something different, because I cannot understand what you are saying and not for the lack of trying. But to me it seems that my question went unanswered, so lets try a step by step type of thing and you tell me where I go wrong:

1. Free will = freedom from causality, circumstance.

2. Deterministic system is a system based on causality (where free will cannot exist).

3. We exist in a deterministic or a random system therefore we cannot have free will.

If you need more information on 3., see the beginning of the opening post.

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JonH (1,139)C (@IJesusChrist) 5 years, 10 months ago ago

Acting spontaneously from the present circumstances is possible.  In this case, you jump off the linear path.”

<font color=”#283235″>This is such a rudimentary understanding of determinism. This ‘spontaneity’ would just fit into determinism. You can’t escape determinism with this type of logic. </font>

<font color=”#283235″>“Oh you think everything I do is determined? Oh yeah? Well watch how wacky and goofy I am!”</font>

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Mike Wuest (510) (@mikeyw829) 5 years, 10 months ago ago

You can’t refute or validate free will through logic or science. You’ve imprisoned yourself in an ideological framework. Of course if you have a belief, you can encapsulate everything to fit within that belief system, and then convince yourself that you’ve found the truth. That’s all you’ve done.  

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JonH (1,139)C (@IJesusChrist) 5 years, 10 months ago ago

You can refute or validate free-will through science. Science claims all things are determined, and thusly uses this to make predictions of future events, which, as we know, happens fairly consistently. Science deals with matter, energy, and forces.

So far, the universe seems to be completely composed of these three things, including you and I. The brain, which seems to be the center of decision making, is composed of matter and energy, forces.

It is not a difficult leap, then, to understand that the brain, and it’s ‘decisions’ are going to be deterministic. Or, they will be probabilistic. Or, they will be random. 

If you have another possibility, please enlighten me.

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heysteve (5) (@dumb) 5 years, 10 months ago ago

>>You can refute or validate free-will through science.

This is partially incorrect, because science cannot validate. Science can only falsify, science cannot prove anything.

As you said, science is used to predict future events, it is done by observing the relations between everything that is part of the experiment. But there is no guarantee that the next time you wake up, everything that is supposedly true isn’t miraculously false.

The more something has been tested, the less likely it is that there’s something has not been taken into account. But as long as time keeps on going forward, the amount of variables could be infinite. It might not seem logical, but we don’t know if “we got time wrong”, because so far it has been working as expected.

Also, science deals in the realm of empirical, measurable evidence. Without those there is no science. There has been interesting findings that support the nonexistence of free will, but as far as I know, we do not have technology that can effectively disprove free will.

What we’re left with is philosophy, logic. Science cannot disprove gods, but logic can. And logic can disprove free will. Or at least try. Can’t really prove anything by logic either, but we can keep disproving things.

Perhaps one day a scientific discovery will be made that disproves the logic that disproves free will. Or a brilliant mind comes up with an explanation that nobody has considered before to falsify the disprove of free will. I will keep looking for that brilliant mind as long as I can while waiting for that scientific discovery. Exactly because we cannot prove anything.

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JonH (1,139)C (@IJesusChrist) 5 years, 10 months ago ago

Science can only falsify, science cannot prove anything.”

It can prove something is false… I really hate this statement, because nobody really adheres to this in a literal sense. 

But there is no guarantee that the next time you wake up, everything that is supposedly true isn’t miraculously false.”

Then what is the point of discussing anything, or doing anything at all? Another statement that can’t be falsified, but nobody actually adheres to in a literal sense.

we do not have technology that can effectively disprove free will.” There have been quite a few recent studies that seem to disprove free-will, the most notable one:

<font color=”#283235″>http://exploringthemind.com/the-mind/brain-scans-can-reveal-your-decisions-7-seconds-before-you-decide</font>

<font color=”#283235″>
</font>

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heysteve (5) (@dumb) 5 years, 10 months ago ago

>>It can prove something is false… I really hate this statement, because nobody really adheres to this in a literal sense.

Best quality of science is that it does not care about emotions.

>>what is the point of discussing anything, or doing anything at all?

Causality. This doesn’t make any sense coming from you. You’re certain that there is no free will, yet you cling to it as if it exists. Just because you don’t like something it doesn’t mean it’s illogical or false. It still might be, but not because of that.

>>There have been quite a few recent studies that seem to disprove free-will

This is not recent. All that says is that our conscious mind is not the free will. If your car doesn’t start and you checked that the battery isn’t the problem, is your diagnosis done?

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JonH (1,139)C (@IJesusChrist) 5 years, 10 months ago ago

Tomorrow might be completely different, the sun may be blue and gravity may become repulsive.

Do you honestly consider this every time you go to bed?

In scientific literature terms, that is very recent.

I don’t understand your car analogy. If the conscious mind is not controlling free will, that would imply you’re not conscious of your free-will, which would defeat the purpose of free-will. You believe what you say, right, or do you just look for something to pick apart?

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heysteve (5) (@dumb) 5 years, 10 months ago ago

Do I consider if the sun may be blue and gravity may become repulsive tomorrow every time I go to bed?

No.

>>I don’t understand your car analogy. If the conscious mind is not controlling free will, that would imply you’re not conscious of your free-will, which would defeat the purpose of free-will.

To me it seems that you understood it perfectly, but you just don’t like it. You are wound up on purpose, what is the problem with defeating the purpose of free will? And what is the purpose of free will?

>>You believe what you say, right, or do you just look for something to pick apart?

If you’re asking that if I can say things I do not believe, then yes. I am capable of that. Let’s say I am looking for something to pick apart. Why do motivations matter?

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JonH (1,139)C (@IJesusChrist) 5 years, 10 months ago ago

To me it seems that you understood it perfectly, but you just don’t like it. You are wound up on purpose, what is the problem with defeating the purpose of free will? And what is the purpose of free will?”

If you’re not controlling free-will how is it “free will” anymore?

Let’s say I am looking for something to pick apart. Why do motivations matter?”

I’m not interested in discussing if your interest is to just contest everything, change none and learn none.

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heysteve (5) (@dumb) 5 years, 10 months ago ago

>>If you’re not controlling free-will how is it “free will” anymore?

You say that “you” should be controlling the free will, but “you” are more than your conscious mind, are you not? Maybe your conscious mind is just the debug console that gets the data a bit later to analyze and the actual free will is in the unconscious mind. Maybe not.

Free will is basically magic. As far as I know, it is not supported by science or logic. If you apply a way of thinking that does not allow free will to exist then free will cannot be found. It might sound strange, but you must take leaps of faith in science. Just because harnessing and controlling lightning might sound completely bonkers to someone from a time where such thing seemed impossible, doesn’t mean it is. Even if today it is “too obvious”.

According to the internet, Neil Degrasse Tyson has said
>>Every great scientific truth goes through three phases. First, people deny it. Second, they say it conflicts with the Bible. Third, they say they’ve known it all along.

I think we could replaced the bible with “common sense” and it would be even more accurate, don’t you think?

>>I’m not interested in discussing if your interest is to just contest everything, change none and learn none.
I am not here to teach you, I am here to teach me. Do you want me to stop messaging you? I can try, but if I slip (I try to not to read who is saying something but what is being said) you should not respond to me as well then.

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JonH (1,139)C (@IJesusChrist) 5 years, 10 months ago ago

I fucking hate this site’s buggyness.

“You say that “you” should be controlling the free will, but “you” are more than your conscious mind, are you not?”

What else would I be? The conscious mind seems to be the only thing that “I” can equate myself to. My body is just a multicellular organism, and multicellular organisms are just chemicals, and chemicals are just matter, and matter is just energy. So I can’t rightly say that I am my body, or I’d be teetering with the problem of identity – where does my body ‘end’ and the external world begin?

“Maybe your conscious mind is just the debug console that gets the data a bit later to analyze and the actual free will is in the unconscious mind. Maybe not.”

Lets suppose it were, what would free-will be if unconscious? Randomness? What would make the decisions, and would not then my conscious mind just be in a determined state, determined by my subconscious?

“Free will is basically magic. As far as I know, it is not supported by science or logic. “

That is exactly what I’ve been saying this entire time, except magic doesn’t exist.

” If you apply a way of thinking that does not allow free will to exist then free will cannot be found. It might sound strange, but you must take leaps of faith in science.”

Did you not just argue with Mikey W. that he was simply saying that free-will exists because he believes in it? Are you not making the exact same claim here? 

You’re going in circles! The original post explains how, scientifically, free-will has to sit into three categories, it simply must. If it fits into any of those three categories, it becomes determined. Further, by your “What if its determined by the subconscious” does not change the original discussion – it only takes the argument out of the conscious and puts it into the subconscious – we still have the same problem – the subconscious would then make decisions in one of three ways: based on previous events (determined), based on probabilities (probabilistic), or on nothing at all (random).

“I am not here to teach you, I am here to teach me. Do you want me to stop messaging you? I can try, but if I slip (I try to not to read who is saying something but what is being said) you should not respond to me as well then.”

I enjoy these discussions, but when they go in circles, or it becomes obvious to me that we’re simply throwing tomatoes at each other, I very much do not enjoy it. If either one of us is malleable, honest, and open enough to learn, these discussions have the chance to change how we view our lives. I have gone through countless changes through discussions I’ve had on this site. I enjoy seeing others go through them just as much as seeing it in myself.

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heysteve (5) (@dumb) 5 years, 10 months ago ago

>>I fucking hate this site’s buggyness.

Firefox seems work better than other browsers for me, but first I need to write the post on notepad and then turn off word wrap and copy everything into the the reply box. Then submit, then edit and paste everything again over the previous. If I need to make changes, I’ll do them on notepad and then copy that into the edit box. Using ctrl+a, ctrl+c, ctrl+v and alt+tab makes it pretty fast. It could be worse.

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heysteve (5) (@dumb) 5 years, 10 months ago ago

>>where does my body ‘end’ and the external world begin?

I don’t understand how you can separate your mind from your body in a physical sense.

>>body is just a multicellular organism, and multicellular organisms are just chemicals, and chemicals are just matter, and matter is just energy

If you want to put it that way, then your mind is chemical reactions to what’s going on in the body. And what’s going in the body are chemical reactions to what happens around the body and in the mind.

>>what would free-will be if unconscious? Randomness? What would make the decisions, and would not then my conscious mind just be in a determined state, determined by my subconscious?

I don’t know what free will is, to me free will is magic. If we could find it somewhere, then we could determine what it is. But first we need to find it.

Is your conscious mind be in a determined state? Yes. This is easy to demonstrate, but still difficult for people to accept.

“Pick a number, any number. Why that number? Did you think of all the numbers you know of and then chose that one? On what criteria? How did you choose that criteria? How did you choose that? How did you…” It can go on forever. We will try to rationalize it in many ways and that can end up alter the way we think about things. This is how we get smart people rationalizing dumb things.

It is an effective manipulation method because it is difficult to accept. It is probably difficult to accept because of the cognitive dissonance from how our society is built on the very premise that we have free will.

Example: someone makes a mistake in something they should not make a mistake in, something that they are always really good at. Push hard enough to make them explain why they made a mistake and if they don’t know why, then the pressure from failure and expectations will force them to come up with something on the spot.

If it is something you want them to keep thinking then you can encourage it or you can make attractive sounding suggestions. Funny thing is that people seem to do this unconsciously all the time to others to “help” them. Even if you tell them what they are doing, the cognitive dissonance will stop them from accepting it.

I don’t think this is off-topic, it demonstrates what I meant. Shaming is a tactic to create opportunities to use this method.

>>That is exactly what I’ve been saying this entire time, except magic doesn’t exist.

I know. This is exactly why I told you that if you took DeLorian for a joy ride back to the 12th century, they would think it is magic or their equivalent of magic. (the bit about harnessing lightning)

>>Did you not just argue with Mikey W. that he was simply saying that free-will exists because he believes in it? Are you not making the exact same claim here?

I do not recall claiming that free will exists for many years now. What I am saying is that if you are looking for free will, you should look for it in the fiction section. If you watch a fantasy movie expecting to see a realistic historical document, you will be disappointed.

But if you are willing to entertain the thought of fantasy then how about reverse engineering? How exactly could these incredible unrealistic things happen? What kind of laws of nature are working differently?

Otherwise, why are you still looking? You consider it to be proven false, is that not all you need to stop looking? Would be for me.

>>You’re going in circles!

According to everything that I know, you were wrong about science in your claims. I told you why and then you have had lot of follow up questions. If I could just give you a pill that has all the information I would do that, but right now we are limited to this medium of exchange. If you do not like it, you are free to stop the exchanges.

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JonH (1,139)C (@IJesusChrist) 5 years, 10 months ago ago

“I don’t understand how you can separate your mind from
your body in a physical sense.”

I can separate the
mind, not the brain. My definition of the mind is conscious thought. I don’t
know where conscious thought ‘is’, so it’s not difficult to separate.


“If you want to put it that way, then your mind is
chemical reactions to what’s going on in the body. And what’s going in the body
are chemical reactions to what happens around the body and in the mind.”

The mind most
certainly is connected, in some way, to chemicals and the body and the brain. I
do not understand how, though. But I do not believe the mind is chemicals;
matter and energy. The mind is consciousness, which is a reflection of the
events in the brain.


“I don’t know what free will is, to me free will is
magic. If we could find it somewhere, then we could determine what it is. But
first we need to find it. Is your conscious mind be in a determined state? Yes. This
is easy to demonstrate, but still difficult for people to accept.”

You contradict
yourself here. How can it both be in a determined state, and for free-will to
exist? I may be confused, do you believe we, humans, have free-will? That we
are able to make decisions that are outside of determinism?


“I don’t think this is off-topic, it demonstrates what
I meant. Shaming is a tactic to create opportunities to use this method.”

It is off topic, but
interesting. I don’t really know what you’re trying to say, but you could write
something to discuss about it. I’d be willing to hear more about what you mean.


“I know. This is exactly why I told you that if you
took DeLorian for a joy ride back to the 12th century, they would think it is
magic or their equivalent of magic. (the bit about harnessing lightning)”

I think the quote you
want to find is “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable
from magic.”


I do not agree with
this, however. Magic breaks the laws
of physics. Technology is dependent
on them.


“Otherwise, why are you still looking? You consider it to be
proven false, is that not all you need to stop looking? Would be for me.”

Because I believe
free-will exists :). I am waiting for a brighter mind to enlighten me how.


“According to everything that I know, you were wrong
about science in your claims.”

I don’t feel you’ve
made me understand where I am wrong.<o:p></o:p>

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Mike Wuest (510) (@mikeyw829) 5 years, 10 months ago ago

“This is such a rudimentary understanding of determinism.”

This is such a condescending and annoying response.  

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Sergeant Major General loony tunes (15) (@downscript) 5 years, 10 months ago ago

Good read JonH, I was thinking something very similar to this last night, and today, in fact.

prediction of the future, in which the prediction itself influences the outcome, is impossible.

It is both possible and impossible, Give it a read, lets say free will is real, random and probabilistic,</p><p>&nbsp;heres an example: I watch Bee and notice something, Bee has yet to notice it until later but I havent<span style="line-height: 21.7000007629395px;">&nbsp;informed Bee yet, Bee notices this too, tells me, we elaborate, and Bee uses this information to accurately</span><span style="line-height: 21.7000007629395px;">&nbsp;predict the future, which influences the outcome by using a hypothesis suppose to be true that wasnt exactly proven until he used it, but knew it was the truth, thus making this a shared experience, its already an&nbsp;</span><span style="line-height: 21.7000007629395px;">shared experience once Bee told me, but Bee proved it to be real, my mind is all over the place here, i feel like</span><span style="line-height: 21.7000007629395px;">&nbsp;Im muttering to myself

Note: When i say suppose its not necessarily without knowledge of a concept,</span><span style="line-height: 21.7000007629395px;">&nbsp;but i was looking for a word betweensuppose,assumeand just general knowledge, and the flight of information gathered at once to predict such a future event so accurately this type could be gathered at different points in time, but at times can prove tobe impossible</span></p><p>because people are lacking some the necessary information i have in mind to explain this in detail.&nbsp;<span style="line-height: 21.7000007629395px;">I can give you a more realistic, detailed, morevisuallyexplained type of circumstance that would lead</span><span style="line-height: 21.7000007629395px;">&nbsp;up to this, in words of course.</span></p><p><span style="line-height: 21.7000007629395px;">but brings me to the thought maybe some biology, chemistry, science knowledge, or the very least general</span><span style="line-height: 21.7000007629395px;">knowledge would be required to understand, no?</span></p><p><br></p><p>Ultimately free will is real, random, probabilistic, and to a certain extent determined bycertain<span style="line-height: 21.7000007629395px;">&nbsp;factors, but can be loosely determined by certain factors to a certain extent</span></p><p><span style="line-height: 21.7000007629395px;">free will is real, but it simply cant be applied to everyone, can it?, Is a child that is in a coma for so long aware? i say child because its a good example: what have they learned, how long will they retain it</span><span style="color: rgb(84, 84, 84); font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: small; line-height: 18.2000007629395px;">? think about it, just as a rock isnt exactly the same as the other.


So i came to the conclusion

free will is real (True, and not true), and Prediction of the future, that in which the prediction itself influences the outcome, is impossible (Is both true and not true)
Feel free to correct me if I`m wrong.

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Sergeant Major General loony tunes (15) (@downscript) 5 years, 10 months ago ago

This is just a rewritten version of what i wrote, because its really not suitable for&nbsp;convenient, I personally feel like skipping a post every time I see its written poorly, so here, <font color=”#283235″>Good read JonH, I was thinking something very similar to this last night, and today, In fact, Ill quote you here, Prediction of the future, In which the prediction itself influences the outcome, is impossible, it is both possible and at times impossible, Give it a read, lets start by saying free will is random and probabilistic, heres an example of the point Im trying to make, I watch and observe Bee and notice something, Bee has yet to notice it until later, But I havent informed Bee what I noticed, Bee notices it, tells me, we elaborate, and Bee uses this information to accurately predict the future, Which is by influencing its outcome by using a hypothesis, so to speak, a hypothesis that suppose to be true, but wasnt exactly proven until Bee used applied it, but Bee knew this was the truth, thus making this a shared experience, though it was already a shared experience once Bee told me about what we both noticed,&nbsp;separately, at different points in time, but communicated about it,(Note: My mind is all over the place here, I feel like Im muttering to myself, (Note: When I say suppose its not necessarily without knowledge of a concept), but I was simply looking for a word somewhere between assume, suppose and general knowledge, the flight of information at once gathered to predict such a future event so accurately, this type of information can be gathered at different points in time, and used more or less at various points, but at times can prove to be impossible, because people are lacking some of the necessary information I have in mind to explain this in detail, I can give you a more realistic, detailed, graphic also more visually explained type of circumstance that would lead up to this, in words of course, but brings me to a thought that maybe some biology, chemistry, science knowledge, or just general knowledge would be required to understand, no</span></font><span style="color: rgb(84, 84, 84); font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: small; line-height: 18.2000007629395px;">?, Ultimately free will is real, random, probabilistic, and to a certain extent determined by certain factors, but can be loosely determined by certain factors to a certain extent, free will is real, but it cant simply apply to everyone, can it?, is a child in a coma for so long aware? I say child because its a good example, what have they learned, how long will they retain it, think about it a rock isnt the same as a other rock, so i came to the conclusion that free will is real (true, and not true), and prediction of the future, in that which the prediction itself influences the outcome, is impossible (is both true and not true), Feel free to correct me if I`m wrong.

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Sergeant Major General loony tunes (15) (@downscript) 5 years, 10 months ago ago

If i never cared to take notes, I significantly increase my chance of ending up in a chaotic situation. both my actions are determined and random, at different times, to a different degree.
I like this discussion, we should have more of these type of converses.

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heysteve (5) (@dumb) 5 years, 10 months ago ago

>>I personally feel like skipping a post every time I see its written poorly
Of all the posters on this site, your posts are the ones I actually skip. Not because of the content, but because it’s always written in nonstop font changing way and there are no chapters. It’s all just one big lump. Only way to make it even worse is stop using spaces all together.justHaveAlltheWordsDivided
ByCapitalisingTheFirstLetterOrSomething.ThenStart
ThrowingInFontChangesAndIWillBeUnableToPickUpEven
SingleSentencesFromWhatYouWrite.

I don’t know what you are saying, because in order to read your message I would have to take it through a filter that takes out all the html tags and the font changes and then bit by bit start reconstructing everything you’ve said into chapters. And then finally read it. That increases the amount of guesses I have to make and every guess I have to make increases the chances of the message getting corrupted.

I am not expecting you to change anything about yourself. I am telling you that even if you don’t care whether I read what you’re saying or not, you might want to work on the presentation to be a bit easier to read for everyone.

With that out of the way, you have one chapter.

>>free will is real (True, and not true), and Prediction of the future, that in which the prediction itself influences the outcome, is impossible (Is both true and not true)
Feel free to correct me if I`m wrong.

Prediction of the future is possible even if the prediction itself influences the outcome. Prediction is just a prediction. But if you want a 100% accurate precognition then it is not possible.

This is from my first post on this topic that explains it
>>A computer within the system to predict the systems future is like an algorithm that requires itself as one of the variables.
>>Meaning that, in order to get results the variables need to be processed. One of the variables is an algorithm and it needs to be calculated. In order to get results the variables need to be processed. One of the variables is an algorithm…

You say that free will is true and false at the same time. I’m not saying it’s wrong because I really don’t understand how that works.

But if you think free will exists, please answer me this:
If the unchanged past could have happened only in the way it did, then the past is deterministic. If the unchanged past could have been different, then the past is random. If random is not free will, then how did the past happen with free will?

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Sergeant Major General loony tunes (15) (@downscript) 5 years, 10 months ago ago

I appreciate the reply, but thats just my writing styling, the same way I would write a poem, or a song, all written in one big concept, because thats the way thoughts appear in my mind, thats very similar to how i processed it initially, You might not be very familar with the type of writing style of my english, so i understand where the confusion might come from, but I did try writing, making it more organized, but every time I try, whatever I wrote just gets all jumbled up, because this site is so buggy, yes i do know that if you want a 100% accurate prediction Its not exactly Cut-and-dried possible, I never said it was 100% accurate, nor was that my intention, but thanks for bringing that up, okay, the past is definitely not deterministic, anything can happen at any time 24/7, Yes i agree with you the past is random, never stated that it wasn`t, okay now the last question, If you can understand my original post that i rewritten, then you have your answer.

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heysteve (5) (@dumb) 5 years, 10 months ago ago

>>okay, the past is definitely not deterministic, anything can happen at any time
>>Yes i agree with you the past is random

I do not agree with that, I agree that random is the only remaining possibility if it is not deterministic.

So past has been random, and randomly it has just been following very specific trends for a very long time. But they could’ve gone differently at any given time, yet they didn’t. Possible. So free will == random according to you.

That does fall into the premises of the opening post. It just redefines free will as random and not freedom from causality. I your answer.

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Sergeant Major General loony tunes (15) (@downscript) 5 years, 10 months ago ago

No, Quit beating around the bushes, and actually read my post if you can comprehend it, otherwise don’t make claims that I didn’t actually intend, It’s easy for my to grasp my mind around it, it just pops up as a concept in my mind, I see vivid images and so on, Kapeesh?, I misspelled determinism, Well, Think about this, why are they so many different languages? why can we make up new languages? I guess you don’t have the same filter in my head, that separates the relevant from the irrelevant, and if you can’t understand, well damn son it’s like teaching a kindergarten class.It’s easy to look at history and say, Oh look humans follow this type of trend, so I’m gonna logically think that a lot of humans aren’t that creative, original type of thinkers, okay?What if i got drunk and randomly kicked your ass? hahaha! that’s random.
You actually tend to contradict yourself, but don’t bother to fully explain why, or even to show us why you think this type of way, instead you just pick apart conversations, and eventually your logic fails, but sure some of it’s okay.
No don’t go “Oh show me where, it has no value”, Your not my kid, friend or family, read my post, if you don’t understand, ask a question, because one statement made by me, without the whole story, isn’t an accurate story.

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Sergeant Major General loony tunes (15) (@downscript) 5 years, 10 months ago ago

You really can’t understand me? you can’t learn new styles of writing english that is fairly common? do you have some type of learning disability or challenges? why is it difficult to comprehend something new? why do you assume stuff? why do you keep replying even if it’s likely not to make any sense? why don’t you make a very original comment that’s actually useful? my suggestion is decide if you believe in free will or not right now, it doesn’t matter what you believe in, belief doesn’t magically change facts, my original post that was rewritten, is simply what I have been thinking about lately, not only thinking about realizing, catalyzed into a comment because of a thread made by JonH, as JonH made it easy to read, a very good read indeed.
In fact, you shouldn’t reply directly to this comment on this thread, you should just take my advice, settle down, take a few deep breaths, and tell me if you understand or not if your actually interested, also pick up some books or something very similar, such as reading a scientific article on the internet.
What’s random is the fact we humans and other type of life procreate and that creates a life form completely unique, thus potentially creating unique ways and perspectives of viewing the world, that my f****d, is random.

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Sarcastic Roach (56) (@sarcasticroach) 5 years, 10 months ago ago

Think of your every conscious moment as a flowchart… A decision is made to progress through time. Most of the moments are passed with very little conscious change.. But changes and adjustments are made by your mind and the path you experience alters accordingly…
As you pass through these nearly infiinfinite moments of choice, every other living being is also making its own path of life choices or at least actions that slightly (or greatly) alter their progression…
As all these chosen alterations occur, they inevitably interact with one or more of the trillions of moments of decision occurring simultaneously, thus creating even millions of new reactions everywhere…..This process immediately repeats itself to deal with the upcoming moment to occur..
The laws of physics, probability, time, gravity, whatever, are continually affected in seemingly random ways….all the time.
Free will is universal. Randomness is constant.

The only thing that’s constant is change.

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JonH (1,139)C (@IJesusChrist) 5 years, 10 months ago ago

That’s all well an beautiful, but do you have anything other than your own opinion to support it?

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