Free Will Vs. God

Thus Spoke Haze (@ehsan) 9 years, 5 months ago

How can the concept of free will coincide with an omnipotent and omniscient God?

Teach us your wisdom.

April 3, 2013 at 8:10 pm
Alex (551) (@hollowinfinity) 9 years, 5 months ago ago

Why do they have to go together is a better question.
Considering how subjective the definition of God is, free will experience could be completely different from God. God doesn’t have to have control to be the most perfect and expansive thing in ‘existence’
think about it.

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smalls (68) (@smalls) 9 years, 5 months ago ago

@ehsan, I’ve asked this question before. Never gotten a straight answer from someone. It’s always seemed to me that if God (or anyone/thing for that matter) knows what you will do, then you have no choice but to do exactly that, therefor no free will.

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DaJetPlane (994)M (@lytning91) 9 years, 5 months ago ago

The objective reality that is God and existence serves as the platform upon which our relative existence is built.

The objective cannot understand the nature of relativity, and the subjective cannot truly perceive absoluteness. Each oversees a specific, yet necessary layer of this existence we are a part of.

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smalls (68) (@smalls) 9 years, 5 months ago ago

@hollowinfinity, God also doesn’t have to have control in order to destroy free will. Simply knowing what will come means that free will doesn’t exist. Of course you can always change what the idea of God is, but the OP clearly stated an omnipotent and omniscient god, and I don’t see how that can coexist with free will.

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TheSkaFish (962)M (@theskafish) 9 years, 5 months ago ago

@ehsan, easily. God creates free will, then leaves it alone – like someone pushing a boulder and letting it roll downhill.

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winslow (85) (@winslow) 9 years, 5 months ago ago

@ehsan, Your will is gods will.

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Thus Spoke Haze (102) (@ehsan) 9 years, 5 months ago ago

@hollowinfinity, They don’t have to go together. However, the Abrahamic God and the major monotheistic religions preach an all powerful God as well as Mankind’s free will.

I did not say God has to have to control to be the most perfect thing in “existence,” but God must most certainly have control in order to be omnipotent.

@smalls, Yeah, that’s the impasse that I’m at.

@theskafish, Complete power over the boulder. Until it begins rolling down the hill, at which point the person who pushed it no longer has any control. Therefore God is not omnipotent. Is that what you mean?

@lytning91, God is most certainly NOT an objective reality. Perhaps you can further explain what you mean.

@winslow, Therefore, I am God.

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a Lotus Blossoms. (140) (@ancientmystic) 9 years, 5 months ago ago

@theskafish, @ehsan, Power is not control, so an omnipotent being would not have to constantly display its power in order to possess it. While the boulder is rolling, the being would actually be in control of the physics which governed the roll, yet the boulder would decide its own path based on the gravity provided.

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TheSkaFish (962)M (@theskafish) 9 years, 5 months ago ago

@ancientmystic, exactly, this is what I mean. @ehsan, I mean that God set free will in motion, and then can consistently choose not to tamper with it.

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Anonymous (214) (@) 9 years, 5 months ago ago

@ehsan, what if we are god, doing whatever he/she/it wants to in this life?

=)

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Thus Spoke Haze (102) (@ehsan) 9 years, 5 months ago ago

@ancientmystic, So in deciding not to intervene with the roll of the boulder would the being not in turn be controlling its fate? And the boulder is hardly deciding which path it is taking, it is being forced downhill by the force of the gravity.

By what you describe, the boulder has absolutely no control. Not to begin its descent downhill nor to stop its roll once it has begun. And it seems the being who has set the boulder into motion loses control once the boulder begin to roll. Let’s of course not look too much into the metaphors.

@theskafish, I see what you mean. Maybe the boulder downhill is not the most accurate analogy.

@justinr, Then we have nothing to worry about!

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Pesica (4) (@anap83) 9 years, 5 months ago ago

I think God doesnt know what we will do..
He gave us free will because he created us from love..otherwise he would create robots instead..
Because he is pure love he is waiting for us to make a decision that we want Him in our lives..thats why this free will is so important..and He respects it..
God doesnt know what we will do, but he offers help, and gives us advices how to live to be better persons…only if we want it..
thats how i see it…

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MarkII (71) (@mwinship13) 9 years, 5 months ago ago

God knows and sees all possible outcomes (To us this is probably an infinite amount). All possible outcomes are seen but in our reality we still choose.

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josephm (772) (@josephm) 9 years, 5 months ago ago

@ehsan, free will is necessary for proper development of distinguishing self. it is the capability of disassociation with your true self by means of programming different loops into your mind. free will allows people to deviate from their natural life rhythmic path, to then alter the future within the realms of intending to manifest creativity.

to distinguish your true self is the connection between us and the intrinsic qualities of our cosmic multi-verse.

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Anonymous (145) (@) 9 years, 5 months ago ago

Free Will vs Public opinion

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Anonymous (177) (@) 9 years, 5 months ago ago

consider that there is no “god”. before anyone gets defensive, which subdues natural sense, just consider. so-called free will is directly related to a “god”. which were you born with? the idea of “god”, perhaps, is picked-up as you go along: a belief. and a belief is something outside of yourself, introduced to you by some outside element, and which you then accept as your “belief”. not being native to you, it is false. we are not born stupid beings that have to be taught everything there is to know. who teaches the monarch butterfly to make it’s annual migrations? “god” and “free will” are mere concepts. there is knowledge outside of conceptuality. YOUR innate, primordial knowledge, which, by the way, is beyond words. ha! we constantly seek to put into words that which is wordless.

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smalls (68) (@smalls) 9 years, 5 months ago ago

The simplest example I can think of is this: If God knows that tomorrow you will wear a red shirt, how can you wake up tomorrow and wear anything but a red shirt? God isn’t necessarily forcing you to wear it, and from your perspective you still have the illusion of free will, but in reality you have no choice but to wear the red shirt. Otherwise you prove God not to be omniscient.

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Alex (551) (@hollowinfinity) 9 years, 5 months ago ago

I’m still confused about why it has to be one or the other. Why can’t there be guidelines for free will or something? God may not know that I will choose left or right, but God may have created the situation to force me to choose. That doesn’t get rid of free will, it just makes it limited, and not limitless like everyone always tries to think of it as.

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a Lotus Blossoms. (140) (@ancientmystic) 9 years, 5 months ago ago

@hollowinfinity, that’s right! Limited free will. We can choose from the options presented. But with imagination, we can also create new solutions to existing choices/problems.

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Alex (551) (@hollowinfinity) 9 years, 5 months ago ago

@ancientmystic, Exactly! This actually happens in the physical world in a sense. Not with god, or free will but micro vs macro worlds. The immense gravity of galaxies spinning literally push particles back into ‘place’ because they tend to stray, and vice versa, the micro world creates the macro. Perhaps God would not be omnipotent if we weren’t like its ‘particles’
God maybe needs his reflection, represented as us, to even be God.

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a Lotus Blossoms. (140) (@ancientmystic) 9 years, 5 months ago ago

@hollowinfinity, your last sentence lost me lol.

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Ray Butler (1,423)M (@trek79) 9 years, 5 months ago ago

@ehsan, Free-will is just choice, a dog chooses which tree to cock his leg, a slug choose to slither north or north-east in the garden. Free-will is not that profound in relation to life, we just have greater potential to nut out more choices, applications of knowledge or impulse to adapt to the universe, or adapt it to us.
But the universe functions on an infinite variable, so every possibility will occur at some point, already has and will again. You are only seeing an incredibly limited snapshot of the cycles, all of humanity combined is only seeing an extremely limited snapshot of it. But then some times the broader picture can be seen.
So free-will? It is not so much that we can choose, or that we are pre-destined so much as each choice big or small is a possibility and with infinite time and chances for each of them to occur, they will occur.

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smalls (68) (@smalls) 9 years, 5 months ago ago

@hollowinfinity, because by saying “god may not know” that means it isn’t omniscient. that’s fine if you don’t believe that god is, or you can change the definition of omniscient. but that is what the op said. so in that context, yes, they are mutually exclusive

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Ray Butler (1,423)M (@trek79) 9 years, 5 months ago ago

But then my explanation does not account for what begs the change of choice in the first place, perhaps the universe has some fundamental link to its previous cycles, or even future cycles, you could say a non-local/nonlinear universal basis or consciousness.
But this would suggest that such a phenomena is either unaware of the best course of the universe or that it is so extremely bored it is experimenting with the universe to see what it can produce, either way it tells us that “God” does not know everything, or that each cycle and their changes makes the next cycle possible, in which case “God” is not all powerful.
So pick one, “God” can only be all knowing or all powerful, not both.

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Anonymous (359) (@) 9 years, 5 months ago ago

My catholic school education taught that time is a man made concept and god does not live in time so the reason he knows what you will do is bc he sees it all at once

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