Instantaneous Communication/Travel

Alex (@hollowinfinity) 9 years, 6 months ago

So, I was smoking with my dad the other day, and he asked me a seemingly simple question: “If a black hole appeared in this room, right now, would the effects of the black hole be felt instantly?”
Would it take time for gravity to reach you from the black hole in the center of the room, to you sitting on a couch against the wall?
It takes light time to travel, and they say there is nothing faster than light, but could it be that some effects we’ve never been without could be instantaneous?

Perhaps if one were to truly understand the effects of gravity, or even create synthetic gravity, it would open up the possibility to communicate instantly across the universe, perhaps even travel great distances.

Though, I wouldn’t even know how to set up an experiment where something wasn’t exposed to gravity to begin with.

November 19, 2012 at 12:05 pm
thinkingathiest (0) (@gray215) 9 years, 6 months ago ago

Well if a black hole were to spontaneously appear where you are than you would not even percieve what happening to you. since time and space as a well as light become entangled and in theory destroyed inside a blackhole. or in another theory you could end up in another time, universe or dimension noone really know. but iam pretty sure if you assembled a really smart and openminded group of people the experiment could be attempted given you had a way to counteract gravity.

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yoinkie (1,498)C (@yoinkie) 9 years, 6 months ago ago

@hollowinfinity, nice hypothetical. Its almost the same as asking, if the sun suddenly disapeared for some odd reason, would earth feel it right away, or would we percieve nothing to be wrong for the 8 minutes it takes light to travel from sun to earth? Before I answer this, what do you think would happen in that hypothetical?

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Rob (75) (@facets) 9 years, 6 months ago ago

@yoinkie, I’m butting in, but wouldn’t we perceive the event 8 minutes later? I don’t see how we could possibly perceive it instantly.

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Alex (551) (@hollowinfinity) 9 years, 6 months ago ago

@yoinkie, We would perceive the event about 8 minutes later, unless for some reason the event itself distorted time and space in such a way to make it even pointless to measure anyways. It takes light time to travel though, from our understanding, and that time is solely dependent upon the observers speed. Since we assume we will be traveling at the same speed, then it would take us 8 minutes to observe the effects.
Gravity on the other hand, could be instantaneous.
@jbalbuena, Gravity does indent space, yes, but everything in the universe still follows a straight line. I believe its called the Geodic route, or something similar. It just appears as a curve because of our limited perception and the curvature of space/time itself.
On the other hand, the faster something goes, the more mass it gains exponentially until the speed of light, where something would contain infinite mass, but require infinite energy. So is it that gravity is really created by velocity, because increasing velocity adds mass, which adds more gravitons into the picture?

So perhaps a better question would be, if the sun were to explode, would we see the event first, or feel its gravitational shift? Or would they occur at the same time?

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Eric (1,819)M (@blankey) 9 years, 6 months ago ago

@hollowinfinity, Indeed gravity creates our reality, so without gravity, there would be nothing but atoms aimlessly wandering or perhaps just wavicles aimlessly waving.

Gravity is both a push and pull, going from one side of the planet to the other and vise-versa, keeping us in this low frequency, high density reality. If that were to change, we would be much lighter, or perhaps more dense, depending on which side increases.

And about the Black Hole, I believe it would be felt instantly, but you would no longer be you, you would be you, stretched to infinity and then whirl-pooled into possibly another Universe.

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Eric (1,819)M (@blankey) 9 years, 4 months ago ago

@hollowinfinity, Although, the Einstein-Rosen Bridge suggests that blackholes are wormholes that travel us to another particular part in spacetime. If so, I believe we would not notice this as it would be instantaneous and would just thrust us to a parallel universe already existing. The reason is because we cannot differentiate from moments being scrambled and moment being consecutive.

Think about when we dream. Do we notice when our dreams randomly scramble about or do we just play along to the thought-responsive reality?

This assumes that the physics in this reality is the same as the other which is unlikely.

This makes me think about how the multiverse is a fractal and novelty machine. It spirals in and becomes more and more chaotic. From quantum static to atoms to matter to biology to the emergence of human self-awareness. The awareness which gives a glimpse of the pure awareness, consciousness which is the Universe. All the way to the point of the Singularity where change is so rapid it changes everything.

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Alex (551) (@hollowinfinity) 9 years, 4 months ago ago

@blankey, That does make a lot of sense, but another thing I pick up on it, is that the ‘big-bang- if it went down like that, wasn’t really a point or maybe it was, but the fate of the Universe seems to be a convergence. I always thought it was odd that no matter which way we look, we can still observe this ‘big-bang singularity’

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Anonymous (2,833) (@) 9 years, 4 months ago ago

No, Einsteins theory of relativity makes the claim that nothing can travel faster than the speed of light – including the four forces.

if the sun exploded / imploded we would not feel a ripple of the effects of gravity until we actually SAW the explosion ourself (i.e. the speed of light) @hollowinfinity,

This isn’t much of a theory anymore – it is well documented that gravity’s effects do not travel faster than the speed of light.

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Tine (366) (@tine) 9 years, 4 months ago ago

@hollowinfinity,

–“If a black hole appeared in this room, right now, would the effects of the black hole be felt instantly?”–

to a non scientist such as myself, i feel the answer to you dad’s question is yes and no, yes, the effects of the black hole would be felt instantly, no, because the reason the effect is felt instantly is due to the speed at which the effect occurs,

it still starts at some point different from you then expands, its expansion rate may eclipse light as far as we know, but it still has to travel to you, even if the rate by which it does so is currently unmeasurable.

i guess, are you defining instantly as in perception? or reality?

i guess, how much do we truly know about black holes, the last i heard we could only conjecture, can you supply any new research or something that contradicts the conjecture point?

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Anonymous (2,833) (@) 9 years, 4 months ago ago

@tine, my above post.

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Tine (366) (@tine) 9 years, 4 months ago ago

@ijesuschrist,

but for a force we don’t understand, like a black hole, perhaps we only assume it a gravity thing because that is one of the only universal concepts we understand and measure,

what i know is that data on black holes is inconclusive, perhaps the reason it is so is because there is another force acting on it that we cannot recognize,

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Tine (366) (@tine) 9 years, 4 months ago ago

@ijesuschrist,

ok, you’re a scientist, how would i attempt to see if there is a force we have not identified yet? can we view gravitational force visually yet through some sort of device? or do assume gravity due to the orbits of the planets?

what do we really know about this force of the universe?

TELL ME JESUS! You MUST KNOW THE ANSWER!!

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Alex (551) (@hollowinfinity) 9 years, 4 months ago ago

The thing with gravity is that it is the weakest force, but we feel its effects the most. It’s the strangest of the 4 forces, the least understood. You can’t see gravity, only its effects, and I don’t think anyone here has broken free from gravity before.

In the theoretical situation of a black hole appearing in a room, using the theory of relativity..it states that things can appear to happen simultaneously. What can happen because of this is seeing the effect before the cause. Or maybe never being shown the cause at all. So its obvious certain things break down here, because at one point, the light may be drawn to the event horizon of the black hole, never letting you even see the black hole at all, another is seeing your destruction before you feel it. Another still seeing it form, seeing your destruction, and feeling it simultaneously.

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Anonymous (2,833) (@) 9 years, 4 months ago ago

@tine, Have you ever heard of books? They are great for this kind of thing…

“ok, you’re a scientist, how would i attempt to see if there is a force we have not identified yet? can we view gravitational force visually yet through some sort of device? or do assume gravity due to the orbits of the planets?”

You think you’re going to find a force, from a black hole, before NASA, and the other hundred thousand physicists payed in the millions yearly to research this stuff?

Let me explain why this isn’t complicated;

We know that black holes are collapsed stars
We know stars are made of matter
We know matter has the attractive force of gravity that permeates from it
We know that other matter orbits black holes in exact agreement as we would expect if they retained their gravity in a more condensed form.
There are no new forces observed with black holes – except for dark energy, which may be a force on even larger/weaker scales than gravity.

But this still has nothing to do with going faster than the speed of light…

You cannot go faster than the speed of light
That isn’t up for discussion. If you truly understood WHY this is so, you wouldn’t argue. The speed of light isn’t like a bullet – its not like you can make a faster bullet. A photon is literally warping time and space around it so that it actually travels and infinite distance in a zero amount of time, yet we can still observe them – almost like a wake of a really fast boat.

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Alex (551) (@hollowinfinity) 9 years, 4 months ago ago

@ijesuschrist, We’re not talking about matter going faster than speed of light. We are talking about forces taking effect faster than speed of light.

Also, you mention all these, “We know” ideas. Whats important is HOW we know. So, how do we know?

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Matthew (16) (@tweibaby) 9 years, 4 months ago ago

@hollowinfinity, Because they are measurable. We can measure gravity, we can measure speed, measure light, measure distance, aso, asf..

The thing about the sun exploding and feeling a change in gravity is we wouldnt.. The gravity of the sun has very little effect on us. If the sun were to suddenly disappear, we would just be flung out into space, but our planet would still retain its own gravitational force.. But gravitational attraction is constant.. Mass has its own amount of gravitational pull and it cant suddenly appear and disappear.. Its constant.. But the effects can only travel so fast, and as of yet, only neutrinos have been discovered as moving faster than light.. And even then, its rare for it to happen..

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Matthew (16) (@tweibaby) 9 years, 4 months ago ago

Also, though time may distort in and around a black hole, that doesnt mean if you were sucked into one you could see your destruction before it happened… We would still perceive time at a certain rate, and you would be crushed and killed very quickly.. And then your perception of time would cease..

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Alex (551) (@hollowinfinity) 9 years, 4 months ago ago

@tweibaby, Firstly, the neutrino travelling faster than light has been debunked because there were errors on how they set the experiment up. Also, gravity is measurable, as a force, but I have not to this day read or heard anything about the speed of gravity being measured. If there is info on this, I would be interested to view it.
The sun does also have a big gravitational effect on us. I mean, it controls our orbit, and makes it so that all the planets don’t just converge on each other. II agree that mass cannot move faster than light, but how can we actually measure the speed of gravity? How fast it takes the force to travel from point A to point B?

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Matthew (16) (@tweibaby) 9 years, 4 months ago ago

Thats the thing, the force of gravity doesnt travel… It remains in the field of the matter its attached to..

Also, several physicists still retain that neutrinos move faster than light. I have heard about the testing flaws, but it hasnt been completely proven or disproven either way, so we’ll say “the jury is still out” to quote George W Bush..

Maybe we will prove Einstein wrong and discover that things can move faster than light, which would mean theoretically that gravity could as well, but until such a time, we will say that the speed of light is essentially the “top speed” of physics..

And yes the gravity of the sun retains us in orbit, I’m just saying, if that gravity were to suddenly disappear, we as humans on earth, wouldnt be able to perceive it.. We would just be able to perceive the temperature dropping as the planet was flung out into open space..

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Anonymous (2,833) (@) 9 years, 4 months ago ago

@hollowinfinity, Why did you ask if you want to just refute the science.

Take some advanced physics courses and you’ll know how we know. This theory was derived a hundred + years ago, and countless experiments have been done that strengthen it. This isn’t crazy difficult stuff, although its incredibly interesting.

But we know that gravity moves at the speed of light – or at least it’s effects do.
Please watch:

@tweibaby, “Also, several physicists still retain that neutrinos move faster than light.”

There was a loose cable, they fixed the cable, it fixed the problem. The physicist who conducted the experiment was so embarrassed that he resigned. If the person who fumbled and then fixed the problem doesn’t believe it, why would you?

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yoinkie (1,498)C (@yoinkie) 9 years, 4 months ago ago

@ijesuschrist, “You cannot go faster than the speed of light”

False. This is only true to the universe we understand up to this point. I remember scientists found Neutrinos travelled faster then the speed of light in an expirement last year, although I believe that was due to human error in the testing method. Some Scientists have claimed Neurons can communicate with other Neurons instantaneously even if they are thousands of light years away.

While it is true that the speed of light can not be broken due to the infinite mass needed to do so which is impossible…that isnt to say that nothing can travel faster then the speed of light. We havent even begun to understand how the universe works, and it is entirely possible there are aliens who are capable of bending time space to tavel thousands of light years in a few minutes. Or maybe Black hole travel. Either way, I dont think we can say nothing can travel faster then the speed of light quite yet. There is infinite amount of information we do not yet understand.

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Eric (1,819)M (@blankey) 9 years, 4 months ago ago

@hollowinfinity, So you’re saying we can traces of the big bang from every direction we shoot our expensive telescopes and what have you? If so, perhaps Biocentrisicm and the idea of a Holographic Universe is in order here.

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Eric (1,819)M (@blankey) 9 years, 4 months ago ago

@hollowinfinity, Oh and you may like this: http://divinecosmos.com/index.php/start-here/books-free-online/19-the-science-of-oneness/84-the-science-of-oneness-chapter-06-gravity-magnetism-and-rotation-the-missing-link

I did not read this particular article but I glanced over it and it looks like it addresses a lot of issues he brought up in the audiobook I have of his. The idea that there is gravity and levity, pushing together to create this particular, rather dense reality.

I think it may go over how to measure gravity too. I’ll have to give it a read soon.

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Anonymous (2,833) (@) 9 years, 4 months ago ago

@yoinkie, No, the speed of light isn’t like a bullet – like I said before. The infinite mass isn’t even the main issue.

I’ll explain it again (I already explained this above)

The speed of light is the cosmic speed limit because as something speeds up, it can continually speed up, forever. You could get in a space ship right now, you could accelerate forever – and you would continually go faster and faster and faster – linearly. Meaning, in some perspective, your speedometer would read greater than the speed of light.

But anyone viewing you would see you going only a fraction of the speed of light

Until your speedometer read infinite – once you “hit the speed of light” (from an observers perspective) you will be in your space ship going an infinite distance in zero time – your speed will be infinite

A photon from the big bang has still not experienced time.
or said another way
A photon from the big bang has still not aged.

You all need to go pick up a fucking book so I don’t have to reiterate this stuff a hundred times

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