Instantaneous Communication/Travel

Alex (@hollowinfinity) 9 years, 10 months ago

So, I was smoking with my dad the other day, and he asked me a seemingly simple question: “If a black hole appeared in this room, right now, would the effects of the black hole be felt instantly?”
Would it take time for gravity to reach you from the black hole in the center of the room, to you sitting on a couch against the wall?
It takes light time to travel, and they say there is nothing faster than light, but could it be that some effects we’ve never been without could be instantaneous?

Perhaps if one were to truly understand the effects of gravity, or even create synthetic gravity, it would open up the possibility to communicate instantly across the universe, perhaps even travel great distances.

Though, I wouldn’t even know how to set up an experiment where something wasn’t exposed to gravity to begin with.

November 19, 2012 at 12:05 pm
yoinkie (1,498)C (@yoinkie) 9 years, 8 months ago ago

@ijesuschrist, Thanks for the refresher physics 101 course, its always good to re-read such things. But as I said, Im not questioning what you are saying, rather only the one sentence that “nothing can travel faster then the speed of light”, which in essence is talking about the distance light travels in a year. Like I was saying, say an advanced species discovers how to alter space time, and bend it so that they can reach location X in no time at all. Now, if location X was 50 light years away from the current location, what you are doing is travelling a distance faster then light can travel that distance. This is just one example of numerous potential space altering scenarios that allow you to travel great distances in ways we can not fathom. So saying that the fastest way to travel a distance is less then the speed of light is just not true. Its true to us, but only because we dont understand much about the way the universe works, which is what I said earlier. So for you, and others, to say that we will never travel such distances because of this overhead universal speed limit, is not true. As of now we only understand travel in straight lines, and there is nothing to say that that is the only way that one can travel. Instead of telling us to pick up a book, it might help you to read others posts before saying such things.

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Anonymous (2,833) (@) 9 years, 8 months ago ago

A Worm hole isn’t travelling faster than the speed of light.

You should still pick up a book

its theoretically possible to get 2.99×10^8 meters away in less than a second.
But in reality this does not violate the speed of light – nothing can go faster.

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Eric (1,819)M (@blankey) 9 years, 8 months ago ago

@ijesuschrist, What book? And so what you are saying is that it would not be instantaneous, but it would be rather quick (or not), depending on how quick a wormhole bridge works?

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Anonymous (2,833) (@) 9 years, 8 months ago ago

@blankey, Anything dealing with relativity.

It could be “seen” as instantaneous… however the person in the wormhole would never seem to be moving ever faster than the speed of light…

A true wormhole isn’t star-trek, it would just look like an odd distortion, almost like a looking-glass, and you could just walk through it, and be on “the other side of the galaxy”…

you bent space, you didn’t exceed the speed of light.

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Eric (1,819)M (@blankey) 9 years, 8 months ago ago

Okay, right, I think I’m following. So if a wormhole were to exist it would be a short bridge from one part of the Universe to another? Can it bend more than once? Seeing as the Universe is a fractal machine, doesn’t it make sense it could bend and bend and bend into a fractal?

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Anonymous (2,833) (@) 9 years, 8 months ago ago

Its bypasses space, you don’t go super fast or anything.

Just think of a flexible ruler. Its 12 inches long, so in normal space youd have to travel that 12 inches, but you could go really fast and get there quick… or you could just bend the ruler till both ends are touching, then just walk from one end to the other without going in between.

Theoretically it could bend, but nobody knows to what extent, nobody knows if wormholes are even really possible, or only in the realm of phaser-beams and proton torpedos.

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Eric (1,819)M (@blankey) 9 years, 8 months ago ago

@ijesuschrist, Yeah I forgot to mention that part about walking through it and not instantly. I think tomorrow I am going to get a book on relativity and wormholes. Not sure which. Very, very interesting ideas.

Is it possible, if our consciousness truly does make atoms go from wave-form to particle, matter form, then perhaps our consciousness can create wormholes too? Just a very tired thought.

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Tine (366) (@tine) 9 years, 8 months ago ago

@ijesuschrist,

hey man, kinda surprised by your sarcastic tone, i have heard of these objects known as books, unfortunately, the subject matter i have accumulated so far has yet to reach to the cosmos, i thought due to your obvious knowledge on the subject that you would have no problem informing someone of lesser knowledge such as myself,

my bad,

thanks for info you did give.

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yoinkie (1,498)C (@yoinkie) 9 years, 8 months ago ago

@ijesuschrist, “you bent space, you didn’t exceed the speed of light.”

Speed? Whos talking about speed? I didnt mention speed. I thought we were discussing travel. If me and a bolt of light(hypothetical here, dont jump on me) left point A at the same time and I used some sort of device that allowed me to bend time space, and I reached point B faster then the bolt of light, I can safely say I traveled faster then light.

And maybe I will pick up another book, maybe something with quotes by Einstein. Oh heres one right now, “If you cant explain anything clearly and without sarcasm to a five year old, you dont know it well enough.” Why do you feel the need to use sarcasm so much in an otherwise easy going science debate? If you feel like you know something to far more detail then anyone else, thats ok, its still ok for you to ponder other thoughts and explain your point of view without using such things as sarcasm. Come on man, maybe you should pick up “how to debate 101” book.

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Mike M (13) (@mikem) 9 years, 8 months ago ago

I read somewhere recently that Einstein developed his theory of general relativity because he could not accept Newton’s assertion that gravity travelled faster than light, and he wanted to come up with an alternative theory.

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Anonymous (2,833) (@) 9 years, 8 months ago ago

@tine, “Suprised by your sarcastic note”

Me? Sarcastic?

@yoinkie, You could, but it wouldn’t be via speed, you just brought “B” closer to you.

A debate? Who said anything about a debate.

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Tine (366) (@tine) 9 years, 8 months ago ago

@ijesuschrist,

Lol, true. I can see from my original post how I may have come across as being sarcastic, if you thought this know my drama was me being funny bc I am familiar with you and my questions were from someone truly wanting to tap into your broader scientific knowledge

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Anonymous (2,833) (@) 9 years, 8 months ago ago

When I say “read a fucking book” the fucking has no anger, disappointment attached to it… i just say that to emphasize something.

But I do get a bit up tight when people are in the field of hating on science (which is appropriate in some cases) but then dismiss anything as “from science” and thus probably not true.

Hence why I get agitated when discussing this stuff, especially on this site.

First – People ask a question that is in its very nature to be answered from rigorous studies and understanding.
Then – I present what is known from the community that studies it.
Last – A reply to me saying how stupid science is and that I should be more open minded and that I’m the one at fault for understanding this side of the argument.

It gets old.

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Alex (551) (@hollowinfinity) 9 years, 8 months ago ago

So if the speed doesn’t matter, instantaneous communication or travel is still possible via gravity. Maybe that idea didn’t come out the way I’d imagined via speed, but I still hold gravity would be able to at least ‘travel’ at the speed of light due to gravitons being massless virtual particles.
In quantum mechanics, things can effect over distances almost instantly, we really don’t know better yet. Until a theory of relativity is explain in the quantum world, and a theory of gravity explained quantum style, gravity acting faster than light is still possible.

The purpose of asking questions, debating them is about understanding..not a dick measuring contest. I personally understand the nature of these things far more when I constructively talk about it. I could easily just stick within my own mind and regurgitate books, but this works much better for me.

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Alex (551) (@hollowinfinity) 9 years, 8 months ago ago

Another thing to understand with relativity, is that ALL things could be relative. Perhaps on one side of the event horizon of the black hole you’d witness the gravity acting faster, and on the other side, light faster.

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Alex (551) (@hollowinfinity) 9 years, 8 months ago ago

ALSO! I heard a plausible idea for travelling fast would be to distort space in front of and behind a ship in such a way it creates a ‘bubble’ around the ship and propels you forward. Your ship isn’t moving, but you travel great distances very quickly. Maybe light is stationary in the same manner. Not practical for much, but if that is true, in a sense everything is a constant, and speed is just a fault of perception.

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Cody (472) (@versai) 9 years, 8 months ago ago

@ijesuschrist, Dude, chill. I am only halfway through this thread but you’re coming off as such an arrogant asshole. How long did humans believe the Earth was flat before people began asking questions and discovering otherwise? Hollowinfinity is asking very good questions here that the average person doesn’t know. The average person isn’t an advanced physicist so please forgive the public for not being as up to speed (pun intended) on the theories as you are. Nonetheless, I think there is a LOT of room for discussion about the subtle forces and their effects as we perceive them. So try being a little patient and explain how at least you have come to the conclusions you have. Your examples aren’t even in realistic terms. A lot of the theories you keep nailing down as laws are actually pretty flexible at the edge of science.

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Mike M (13) (@mikem) 9 years, 8 months ago ago

@ijesuschrist, When you said “read a fucking book” I took it literally, and picked up a copy of the Kama Sutra.

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Anonymous (2,833) (@) 9 years, 8 months ago ago

@hollowinfinity, “Until a theory of relativity is explain in the quantum world, and a theory of gravity explained quantum style, gravity acting faster than light is still possible.”

But we have not observed this, ever, at all, anywhere, under any circumstances. We have, however, observed that gravity seems to act at the speed of light.

“Another thing to understand with relativity, is that ALL things could be relative. Perhaps on one side of the event horizon of the black hole you’d witness the gravity acting faster, and on the other side, light faster.”

Sure, maybe you’d find some ponies too. Maybe Heaven is in a black hole. These are insanely improbable, and nothing leads us to believe this except being high and speculating about things.

Your last comment I have also read about and its very interesting, however its probably something similar to bending a sphere without creasing its edges – totally possible in the realm of pure mathematics, but probably not in reality. And I was under the impression that you did have to move at the speed of light, but an observer would “see” you moving faster.

@versai, I’m just sick of reading pseudoscience being put off as real science. A bunch of people who have never taken even a statics-physics course come on the internet and start claiming they have revolutionary ideas about quantum mechanics, relativity and so forth. I am NOT saying anyone in this thread is doing that, but its a sore spot, and easily irritated.

If you want to have a discussion, or a “debate” as someone put it – please post things that are based off of ANYTHING observed in the universe, rather than just speculation that maybe things are crazy weird else-where.

Trust me, physicists are very intelligent, as are mathematicians. Most (not all) are not in it for fame, for removing your sense of imagination, or for becoming rich – there are many other careers for that. Most physicists are very dedicated, extremely intelligence, and quite imaginative, give them some credit.

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Alex (551) (@hollowinfinity) 9 years, 8 months ago ago

So if I had a degree itd make everything I said more probable? Thats a bit foolish. I get your points @ijesuschrist, but its a two way street. People are way too hesitant to question science. Logic is as broken a system as any other is. If this were a site designed for scientists to debate, I’m sure the conversation would go a bit differently, but that being said, it isn’t. If you get so frustrated from it, then why do you feel the need to keep repeating yourself and including yourself in the conversations? Ego trip maybe?

Like I said, talking about it leads to understanding. I’m sure Einstein himself was able to ‘perfect’ his theory because people were debating him on everything, every step of the way, correct? He probably had a wrong impression on some things at first, until he discussed it and realized the nature behind it.

‘But we have not observed this, ever, at all, anywhere, under any circumstances. We have, however, observed that gravity seems to act at the speed of light.’

How many people do you know, have ever been completely released of any gravitational pull? On the other side, if you were without gravity, you can’t really compare light to it, because you have no gravity basis. It was mentioned earlier in this thread that gravity works as a field. The theoretical in the OP was the speed at which this field is created. As if something just ‘showed up’ right here in front of me. This is improbable yes, and we’ve never seen anything like it happen, but if we could logically figure that out, perhaps there is greater things to be understood from it. Don’t be so all-knowing, you might learn something.

‘Sure, maybe you’d find some ponies too. Maybe Heaven is in a black hole. These are insanely improbable, and nothing leads us to believe this except being high and speculating about things.’

You should read the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy for just a littler refresher to how improbable things can really be quite important. Sure, its fictional, but what they say is important. Stop thinking so goddamn linear.

“totally possible in the realm of pure mathematics, but probably not in reality”
So in this case, how do you personally define which mathematics to toss, and which ones to keep to explain reality?

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Cody (472) (@versai) 9 years, 8 months ago ago

@ijesuschrist, No, dude. YOU need to step off and give the average inquisitive mind some credit. If we only ever questioned within the box of what we believe to be true, we would be nowhere. Just last year a young, Egyptian woman put forth a new theory for space propulsion: http://digitaljournal.com/article/325785

This is the perfect ground for discussions like this to explain what we currently think is happening and how we arrived to that conclusion. If you’re too stuck on dead men’s theories to think for yourself and discuss with others, why are you even here? Regurgitation of what you’ve been told isn’t real science.

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Alex (551) (@hollowinfinity) 9 years, 8 months ago ago

@ijesuschrist, Oh and also, not everything has to be strictly scientific. Some “Pseudoscience theories” to you, are a great philosophical idea for another. I’ve notice a big trend of science and philosophy coming together, and it really makes a lot of people all butt-hurt. Does it matter if the theory itself is true, or false, or neither..if it creates or shows philosophical ideas and breakthroughs for anyone?

You may not be a big philosophy fan though. I get that impression from you. You’d be aware of mythology and its importance and validity as well, and youd have a different idea about what pseudoscience is.

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Anonymous (2,833) (@) 9 years, 8 months ago ago

@hollowinfinity, If you had a degree you wouldn’t be asking these questions – you’d already know the answer.

” If you get so frustrated from it, then why do you feel the need to keep repeating yourself and including yourself in the conversations? Ego trip maybe?”

Partly ego, yeah, but more so it bothers me more so when two pseudoscience-majors meet and then become absolutely entwined in an idea that has no logical sense in reality. So I here I am, trying to maximize my comfort and minimize my pain.

“How many people do you know, have ever been completely released of any gravitational pull?”
Why is this necessary at all? When something moves, explodes, or decays, you can see the action of the change in gravitational force from that.

“So in this case, how do you personally define which mathematics to toss, and which ones to keep to explain reality?”

Because we don’t have any matter than can bend space-time in the geometry needed for that device to work. Not to mention it would probably kill you inside. After a while of reading research done on actual verifiable experiments in reality, those done in mathematics, and those that are just ideas, you can sift through which to give any weight…

If you’re interested in this stuff, why not read a book on it. A “real” “linear” thinking book, so at least you get all sides of the story, without dismissing a side you aren’t even fully familiar with?

I used to be all anti-science too. And I told myself, well fuck it I’ll educate myself on it so I understand what is actually wrong with it. Then I learned. Then I became humbled by the great minds before me.

@versai, What is your point of the little girl? She used “dead men’s” ideas to get to where to her claim, and not only that, the idea pre-dates her by 10 years, if not more. It wasn’t “new” it just seemed new because a little girl came up with it.

Amazing but I don’t see the point you’re trying to make.

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Anonymous (2,833) (@) 9 years, 8 months ago ago

@hollowinfinity, “Does it matter if a theory is true or false…”

Well yeah why would you want to discuss ponies being inside a black hole?

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Alex (551) (@hollowinfinity) 9 years, 8 months ago ago

@ijesuschrist, You assume far too much. I read quite a bit, and educate myself all the time. I think you’re just a little too narrow-minded for this thread.

“If you had a degree you wouldn’t be asking these questions – you’d already know the answer.”
You imply that people with degrees have all the answers, how cute.

“Partly ego, yeah, but more so it bothers me more so when two pseudoscience-majors meet and then become absolutely entwined in an idea that has no logical sense in reality. So I here I am, trying to maximize my comfort and minimize my pain.”

So you go out of your way to induce ‘pain’ so that you can minimize it? I don’t believe anyone mentioning they were entwined in any idea. Maybe thats where we have the advantage? We can actually think without getting hung up on bullshyt.

“Why is this necessary at all? When something moves, explodes, or decays, you can see the action of the change in gravitational force from that.”

AGAIN, WE AREN’T TALKING ABOUT MATTER. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE FIELD OF GRAVITY. GOING FROM NO FIELD TO A FIELD.

You toss out a lot of ‘fact’ but you have 0 things to back it up with. In fact, please define for me what fact is. Show me that there is nothing beneficial from these conversations. Show me you actually ‘know’ what you read. Show me that there is no philosophical importance to asking questions.

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