Is Vegan logic rational??

 Baba (@myselfbaba22)8 years, 8 months ago

This is only a doubt of mine. I have seen people who do not eat meat cos they think its wrong to kill life. Agreed that animals have life and we are killing them as before we make the dish. But dont plants have life too? So by the same logic shouldnt one also not eat plant stuffs?! Well i have heard people repartee that animals feel pain but plants dont so as to rationalise their stand. Well then give the animals a shot of analgesic before you cut their neck. They wouldnt feel pain either?! And as a matter of fact, since half a century back its been know that even plants feel pain. So this vegan thing, as a means to test our own will or as a measure of discipline is fine, but as a logic guided decision, is it rational indeed or am i missing something?!

January 10, 2013 at 9:49 am
MidnightDragon (8) (@midnightdragon) 8 years, 8 months ago ago

I was thinking about becoming a vegan, and the push for me was a spiritual one as i feel that depending on how the creature is killed it’s feelings and life force still resides in the food and when you eat it, it becomes part of you. So for example in a slaughter house the cows, pigs, etc are stunned and killed, but not all the animals get stunned properly and some are abused there’s been stories that I’ve heard and documentaries that I’ve watched about how some people would stun the animals in the eye or in the ear and even one were they shoved a stun rod up a pigs rectum and shocked it. All the fear and pain that they go through is in the residual energy as a negative force, and since you consume it, it becomes a part of you. As for plants they essentially offer themselves to you to eat as they change to look more appealing and smell appealing as well. at least some do anyway lol

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DMTageous (18) (@dmtageous) 8 years, 8 months ago ago

Animals eat other animals. We are animals who through evolution have acquired teeth that are designed to eat meat. I’m not saying we have to, its just part of being an animal who is an omnivore. I don’t think its disrespectful to eat animals. Its just part of life. And in response to midnight dragon saying plants look good and smell good to be eaten, they look good and smell good to attract insects for pollination. Plants grow thorns and are poisonous to deter animals from eating them. There’s a plant in the amazon that smells like rotten meat even. And since emotions and feelings are chemical reactions in the brain I’m not so sure that they still reside in steaks and hamburgers when you eat them. I’m open to anything though, given the evidence. I don’t hunt and I don’t exclusively eat meat or look down on those who are vegan. I’m just an animal living life according to evolution and biology.

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MidnightDragon (8) (@midnightdragon) 8 years, 8 months ago ago

@dmtageous, insects don’t pollinate fruits and vegetables the pollinate flowers. as for the energy in the meat depending on how it was killed there would be different chemical reactions through out the body. I’m sure if you euthanized a cow rather then torture it before it dies would make a difference in how the meat turns out.

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adam (71) (@adamd) 8 years, 8 months ago ago

@myselfbaba22, The logic is sound as far as I can see. The level of consciousness of a cow is above that of a plant so it seems to me the cow will feel more pain. The cow also has a family so things like dairy farming where calves are taken from mothers immediately after birth causes significant pain.

Also, if the goal is to minimize pain, veganism is the way to go. You will derive more energy from 1 kilo of corn eaten directly as opposed to 1 kilo of corn eaten through a middleman, i.e. a cow. Therefore, not only is pain caused to a cow, but also to the extra amount of pain caused to corn that is being lost as cow shit and not turned into meat.

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Rob (75) (@facets) 8 years, 8 months ago ago

@myselfbaba22, Animals are supposed to eat other animals. Humans are omnivorous; we have shape canine teeth. We were designed to eat meat.
As far as those who say it causes pain and suffering: that’s all just part of our existence.

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Ray Butler (1,423)M (@trek79) 8 years, 8 months ago ago

@myselfbaba22, I think it’s rational, but not for the idea of killing animals, that part is irrational, the rational part is that these days there are nutrient suppliments that cover what you gain from meat. Meat has a bunch of good things about it but it also has a buttload of bad things about it. Things like animal fats and oils are so bad for you, another thing is that it is a struggle for our bodies to properly digest meat and so it ends up impacted on our colon, this can cause bowel cancer.
I think red meat would be better left out of our diets and have substitutes to replace them, but white meats like fish and fowl are worth keeping. But then I don’t follow this advice myself so who am I to talk?

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Colton (26) (@emecom) 8 years, 8 months ago ago

@myselfbaba22, You are looking at it as an “either or” situation. Either we don’t eat anything because everything can feel pain, or we eat everything because we don’t care. But I don’t see it that way, a plant is living, but it is a completely different life than even the most basic animal. So I see eating only plants as at least one step.

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adam (71) (@adamd) 8 years, 8 months ago ago

@facets, HAHA!
vegetarian bamboo eating panda bear
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3172/2739007600_ee73fb590b.jpg
vegetarian fruit and chute eating gorilla
http://cache2.allpostersimages.com/p/LRG/29/2908/4QNPD00Z/poster/hamblin-mark-lowland-gorilla-male-yawning-showing-teeth.jpg
vegetarian fruit eating orangutan
http://www.connecticutvalleybiological.com/images/sp2002.jpg
the physiological evidence is abundant for humans being vegetarian!
why cause unnecessary pain and suffering?

@emecom, well said!

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Manimal (2,998) (@manimal) 8 years, 8 months ago ago

@myselfbaba22,

“Is vegan logic rational.”

NOPE. It’s not rational or logical.

“But dont plants have life too?”

Precisely, a living thing is a living thing.

“Well then give the animals a shot of analgesic before you cut their neck. They wouldnt feel pain either?!”

That’s right.
Isn’t it weird though, that they’re more concerned with pain than death?

“And as a matter of fact, since half a century back its been know that even plants feel pain.”

True, true. But let’s ignore that and keep up our idiotic ideologies, shall we?

“So this vegan thing, as a means to test our own will or as a measure of discipline is fine, but as a logic guided decision, is it rational indeed or am i missing something?!”

It’s just a way for dumb and weak people to be bigoted and self-righteous, while they ruin their bodies in the name of “compassion.”

Veganism is self-sanitation, just like religious fundamentalism and gang wars. Natural selection doing its thing, weeding out the fuckups.

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Baba (17) (@myselfbaba22) 8 years, 8 months ago ago

@adamd, wat makes you say the level of consciousness of plant is less than that of a cow? cant it be that since cows are mammals like us humans, we are able to relate better to them and thus consider them lik us, conscious. While plants, being unlike us, we propose them to be similarly unlikely to be conscious enough, haan?! So its brings in an anthropocentric view of things, aint it? And about the kilogram of corn as against the middlemen, wel, meat is a concentrated source of energy. 1 kilo of meat equals many kilo’s of corn. And the energy that is lost through the middlemen as u speak is lost in the act of living buddy. Staying alive, moving about and doing things costs energy.

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Baba (17) (@myselfbaba22) 8 years, 8 months ago ago

@emecom, ok. whats ‘life’ as when you say plant is a ‘completely different life’?

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Baba (17) (@myselfbaba22) 8 years, 8 months ago ago

@adamd, we live consciously, dont we. And we make decisions based on analysing their pro’s and con’s. So saying “physiological evidence is abundant for humans being vegetarian” doesnt mean we hav to be so. And setting it apart, u know wat, i presume this contention is even wrong. Try eating wood, or grass. We dont digest cellulose. We are omnivores. As for evolutionary support, go a couple step back and you will find self and the ferocious asiatic lions sharing common ancestors.;)

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adam (71) (@adamd) 8 years, 8 months ago ago

@myselfbaba22, Yes, that is exactly why. You are correct. I can visibly see a cow in pain whereas I cannot visibly see a stalk of corn in pain. It absolutely does. I agree with you that this could go much deeper into a spiritual arena in which neither of us would know what we were talking about and we could speculate on the consciousness level of corn all day long. But! The fact still remains that more plant life is being harmed in the consuming of animal products than if you were to just eat the plants directly. Therefore, if you are correct, and plants have a higher consciousness level than cows, the vegan is still causing less harm to ‘life’ than the meat eater.

All of that moving around is wasting energy. According to http://www.extension.org/pages/35850/on-average-how-many-pounds-of-corn-make-one-pound-of-beef-assuming-an-all-grain-diet-from-backgroundi , it takes 2lbs of corn to produce 1lb of animal. Not including the inedible parts, it goes to around 4.5lbs of corn to produce 1lb of red meat.

I’m not sure how you prefer your meat, but I just grabbed a random sample. 1lb of red meat http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/beef-products/8000/2 contains 1225 calories and 118 grams of protein ( I know how meat eaters tend to obsess over protein ) with an amino acid score of 49 (no idea what that means). 2lbs of corn http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/cereal-grains-and-pasta/5687/2 contains 3314 calories (significantly more energy, even if divided by 2) and 81 grams of protein with an amino acid score of 55. Change that to 4.5lbs and wow do you have a boatload more energy as well as protein.

Now that doesn’t really mean anything because nobody eats strictly ground beef or strictly corn (i hope?) but I find it fun and it displays how much energy is lost in the harvesting of cow meat. Personally, I eat mostly fruit which, by eating still leaves the organism unharmed. And, obviously, one could eat strictly free ranging organic grass fed grass finished cows and that would be better I guess.

There’s really no point in trying to convince you because you are evidently not someone who really wants to be convinced.

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adam (71) (@adamd) 8 years, 8 months ago ago

@myselfbaba22, physiologically, it is evident that we are not designed to consume wood or grass. look up pictures of animals that eat wood and/or grass. do we have similar teeth? are our heads located in similar places on our bodies? Now, compare us to fruit & chute eaters like gorillas, orangutans, and chimpanzees.

And, you are absolutely right. Just because our bodies want something doesn’t mean we have to do it. Look at the way people sit at desks all day long. Our bodies long for running through trails and climbing trees but we sit in cubicles.

I firmly believe that the best way to know if a diet is best for you is to try it. See how you feel before and after. Notice how light you feel after a huge vegan meal. Notice how easy it is to shit. My paleo friends sit on the toilet for longgg periods of time every couple days. Notice how little energy it takes to digest a fruit meal and how much energy you get from it. I don’t know where I’m going with that, just food for thought.

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Obviously, you’re not a golfer (605) (@donjaime23) 8 years, 8 months ago ago

@myselfbaba22, Personally, I believe that to turn one’s nose up to one’s rightful place at the top of the food chain is one of the single most presumptuous things a human being can do.

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Samson (2) (@samsonc) 8 years, 8 months ago ago

I believe that being vegan is logical and im not just saying that because I am vegan myself. Above avoiding meat and dairy products, I don’t eat unhealthy things in general. I try to eat things that are good for me so that I can take in positivity and feel good. I do this for my health, and also because I don’t want to support bad food industry. (also although we have canine teeth our digestive tracks are longer than one of a carnivores and designed for eating plants) For me it goes beyond if animals or plants feel more pain, I think that the means by which our food has been produced are irresponsible and are causing pain to both animals and plants.

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Anonymous (26) (@) 8 years, 8 months ago ago

Is it logical to kill a cow using our own bodily resources (nails, teeth, strength, stealth) and eat it raw like all other carnivores?

Animals aside, it is fairly logical to follow a vegan diet in regards to our earth. It is not a myth, a philosophy, or a belief that we use way more energy to produce meat than plants, which causes much more pollution. It is straight fact. If we took that energy and applied it strictly to plants, we could essentially feed the entire human population.

You can be a healthy meat eater, granted you balance your diet very well. I do not believe the meat is necessary to be healthy though. You can be unhealthy no matter what you believe, the key is to be aware of what you are putting into your body.

Not every way of life is for everyone. I followed a typical processed American diet (meat/cheese/eggs/ramen) for the majority of my 25 years. I will never look down on anyone’s dietary choices.

However, the negative view toward veg*nism is surprising, especially here at HE. We care about something. Be it animals, our bodies, or the environment. 90% of vegans don’t give a fuck what you eat or do. The ones that do care and have a pretentious attitude toward meat eaters, are, well, pretentious assholes that even I wouldn’t associate with. Don’t allow these people speak for all participants.

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Nickole (67) (@squishy) 8 years, 7 months ago ago

@facets, Humans are biologically herbivores. We started eating meat and their bi-products as a means of survival. We are not cavemen anymore, we do not need to eat meat, in fact it is detrimental to human health. And, as far as the ethical and moral issues of paying for others to raise and torture animals to slaughter, that is by no means natural. No other animal does that. No other animal drinks milk after weaning. No other animal drinks another animals milk. It is unjustifiable.

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Nickole (67) (@squishy) 8 years, 7 months ago ago

@midnightdragon, I think you should totally take the vegan plunge. I went vegan last january for ethical reasons and i feel so much more connected to nature and other animals. I also have more energy and haven’t gotten anything worse then a headache. (:

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Nickole (67) (@squishy) 8 years, 7 months ago ago

@dmtageous, Yes, carnivores hunt and kill other animals. But, we are not carnivores. have you ever wondered why so many humans need braces? it’s because our jaws have shrunk tremedously because we stopped eating the green leafy vegetables and fruits that our jaws were designed for. We began eating meat and that is what shrunk our jaw and screwed up our teeth and our health.

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Nickole (67) (@squishy) 8 years, 7 months ago ago

@myselfbaba22, have you ever had a dog or cat? If so can you honestly say that killing that animal and pulling out a carrot from the ground are the same thing?

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Nickole (67) (@squishy) 8 years, 7 months ago ago

@manimal, Plants are what is natural for humans to eat and are essential for survival. Eating animals is unnecessary. If you honestly think its the same, i’m sorry, but you are in complete denial.

As far as vegans being self righteous, omnivores are the ones saying screw biology, I’m going to pay for someone to raise and slaughter animals for me because my life is more important then theirs. Vegans on the other hand, realize that all animals are equal.

Animals are not here for humans just llike women are not here for men and black people are not here for white people.

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Manimal (2,998) (@manimal) 8 years, 7 months ago ago

@squishy, Right…

Then explain to me how come the FACT that we can’t digest cellulose? Hmm? If we were herbivores we would be able to do that, yet we can’t.

How come there’s tons of scientific PROOF that typical vegan food is full of anti-nutrients and indigestible rubbish?

I’m not paying anyone to raise and slaughter animals for me. I know some farmers and hunters who share their meat with me in return for other favours. I don’t consider my life more important than other animals, I don’t consider myself superior to them. Of course all life forms are equal, that doesn’t mean we can’t eat eachother.

You’re the one claiming superiority over plants. Plants are living beings just like animals. They have the same thirst for continued life and growth, they too feel pain when you hurt or kill them.

All life is equal, but all life feeds on other life. I eat plants and animals, one day plants and animals will eat me. That’s the circle of life. Embrace it.

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Anonymous (254) (@) 8 years, 7 months ago ago

Fast food junkies can logically explain the rationale behind gorging themselves at McDonald’s.

Meat eaters can do the same with horse meat and veggies can do it with carrots.

Logic is circumvented by bias and circumstance. Lazy fat people like microwavable ready meals for convenience, comfort and gluttonous indulgence. Their logic is sound, but it doesn’t mean shoveling processed chicken feet into you is a logical decision.

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Nickole (67) (@squishy) 8 years, 7 months ago ago

I’m sure some processed vegan food is full of rubish, just like processed food in general is rubbish. Hell, potato chips and coca cola are vegan, doesn’t mean it’s healthy.

If you are eating animals, then that means you think you are better than them. Because you could easily survive off of fruits, vegetables, nuts and seeds, but you CHOOSE not to.

That is your choice.

Out of curiousity, would you eat a horse or a dog?

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