Is Vegan logic rational??

Baba (@myselfbaba22) 9 years, 8 months ago

This is only a doubt of mine. I have seen people who do not eat meat cos they think its wrong to kill life. Agreed that animals have life and we are killing them as before we make the dish. But dont plants have life too? So by the same logic shouldnt one also not eat plant stuffs?! Well i have heard people repartee that animals feel pain but plants dont so as to rationalise their stand. Well then give the animals a shot of analgesic before you cut their neck. They wouldnt feel pain either?! And as a matter of fact, since half a century back its been know that even plants feel pain. So this vegan thing, as a means to test our own will or as a measure of discipline is fine, but as a logic guided decision, is it rational indeed or am i missing something?!

January 10, 2013 at 9:49 am
Kidd (1,059) (@kidd) 9 years, 7 months ago ago

When you don’t need to kill animals to survive, why bother?

Humans can adapt to most everything and anything. Why kill what we don’t need if we can stay healthy without it?

It’s wasteful, quite frankly, unless we’re talking about overpopulation of a certain species.

That being said, I say fuck it. It’s not my thing to be a vegetarian. I’ll stick with meat and milk and eggs.

Anonymous (254) (@) 9 years, 7 months ago ago

“If you are eating animals, then that means you think you are better than them”

This isn’t doing vegan logic any favors..

Animals eat plants, plants eat animals. Live and let gorge.

Nickole (67) (@squishy) 9 years, 7 months ago ago

@mimic, Well if you are killing an animal for you to consume when their are tons of other more nutritious options, yeah you must think you are better.

Or are so blinded that you cant see the big picture.

Nick (554) (@splashartist) 9 years, 7 months ago ago

LOL at people saying our teeth are omnivorous. If you want to see omnivorous teeth then look a bears mouth for petes’ sake.
Why do you think we need to cook chicken and beef before it is safe to eat? We DONT have the proper stomachs to digest raw meat (well fish is fine). Have you tried eating raw chicken? Its not so easy to eat as one could imagine, same with beef. We cook the shit for a reason. People that are vegetarians have on average a 9 year life expectancy longer then meat eaters. They did year(s) long studies on it.
Of course, meat in moderation is totally fine and if you want to eat like a carnivore then go ahead. I just feel (And my body) that a 90% vegetarian diet for me is the best way to feel good.

Anonymous (254) (@) 9 years, 7 months ago ago

“Well if you are killing an animal for you to consume when their are tons of other more nutritious options, yeah you must think you are better.”

Or I might just be hungry? Pretentiousness doesn’t enter into my gastronomical repertoire, usually. If I was prone to cannibalism, maybe.

“Or are so blinded that you cant see the big picture.”

The big picture is that plants eat us. By your logic mother earth is a narcissistic fat girl that just can’t get enough of our tasty bits.

Nickole (67) (@squishy) 9 years, 7 months ago ago

@mimic, Hungry for the meat pulled of off a dead animal carcass? Yummy. Like I said you CHOOSE to eat dead animals because you think your life is more IMPORTANT then theirs. The mere sake of your hunger outweighs their death.

Would you eat your cat or dog if you were hungry?

Anonymous (254) (@) 9 years, 7 months ago ago

I choose to eat meat because it seems wasteful and rude not to, when offered.

“Would you eat your cat or dog if you were hungry?”

It might surprise you, the depths you will go to, when your survival is at stake. Pretense is easy when you’re comfortable, they tend to drop when you’re threatened.

It’s great that you are concerned for the animals, but don’t stigmatize meat eaters as ignorant.

Nickole (67) (@squishy) 9 years, 7 months ago ago

@mimic, If someone offered you cooked human flesh would that be rude to pass up?

And, I’m talking in general you’re not starving to death when you eat other animals like cows and pigs, so like with those animals would you eat horse meat or dog meat if someone offered it?

Nickole (67) (@squishy) 9 years, 7 months ago ago

And, not all meat eaters are ignorant, some are just blinded with social norms, and some are heartless people who even after knowing the facts still choose to eat meat purely for the taste.

I am the only vegan i know, only one in my family, community, and school. So, I do have loved ones who eat meat and animal biproducts, and I don’t judge them.

Manimal (2,998) (@manimal) 9 years, 7 months ago ago

@squishy, I’m not even talking about the processed stuff. I’m talking about grains and legumes, and those nasty oils. Full of nasty shit that slowly kills you.

Sure I could survive eating only greens, but I wouldn’t live as long and I wouldn’t have as much energy, and my testosterone would plummet, making me weak. And with the way I live, there’s no way I could get enough fat and protein without eating meat. I would basically wither and die.

I don’t think I’m better than any other animal, I have great respect and appreciation for all living things. Still, I have to feed, just like they do.

I’ve eaten lots of horse meat, I thought most people had. Why wouldn’t I eat a horse?
A dog? Well, if I had a dog and we were starving, I would eat it. But I would make sure that it was alerted and fought back, fair and square. The winner gets to eat and live on. The dog wouldn’t be as nice though, no matter how tame a dog is, if it gets too hungry it will try to eat you. And it will strike when you’re not prepared, going straight for the jugular, happened to a friend of mine.

Life feeds on life, which feeds on life. That’s how mother nature made it, why do you oppose her?

You eat plants, that must mean you think your life is more important than theirs.
And yknow, there’s lots of little animals on the ground everywhere. When you walk, you kill them… which must mean that you consider your walking more important than their lives. And if you were going to defend by saying you can’t see them, well, that just goes to show how little you care about their lives.

Every time you eat, you rob other creatures of their food, thereby killing them too.

Every action you take, you kill something. And you probably don’t even notice it. But ignorance is no excuse. We’re killers, everything that lives does so by killing other things that live.
There’s millions of lives ending around you as we speak, all around you, on you, inside you. Death is everywhere.

There is no escaping it, and it isn’t bad. It’s just the way things are. Death is just a part of life. Everything dies sooner or later, and thereby feeds something else.

I feel honoured to be a part of this, grateful to be given this chance, I feel great love and respect toward mother nature and all that she brings us, including this game of life and death.

Don’t hate on reality.

Nickole (67) (@squishy) 9 years, 7 months ago ago

@manimal, You don’t have to eat all the grains, legumes, and oils. But, there are some really tasty ones if you tried. For example olive oil and coconut oil are really good.

They have done lots of research and you would live a healthier, longer life if you switched to a well rounded vegan diet. Meaning getting adequate proteins and minerals through a variety of nuts, seeds, fruits, and vegetables.

I do not oppose mother nature. She designed us to be plant eaters, why do you oppose her and go against it..

Yes, I do kill insects when i walk and when I eat vegetables. But are you saying that because I can’t do EVERYTHING that i should do NOTHING? And, you actually kill more insects and bugs then i do anyways with all the plants grown to feed the animals you eat. I know you said you get them locally, but I’m assuming you go out to restaurants and fast food places. Plus, buying milk and eggs, still have to feed the chickens and cows.

Yes, death is everywhere, it is a part of life, but HUMANS do not need to eat animals or their bi products, it hurts the environment, and human health.

I wish people would take their blinders off and see that every animal is equal, why love your dog or cat, but eat cows and pigs?

Alex (551) (@hollowinfinity) 9 years, 7 months ago ago

I can see both sides to eating meat, and not eating meat. Realize that either path you are killing life. In fact, I’m sure you kill life just by walking down the street. Every time you use hand sanitizer. If anyone here has read the book “Our Kind” either as part of anthropology class, or on your own, they give pretty concrete ‘proof’ that eating meat is almost needed for your body. (As well as whole milk being better than skim or 1,2%)

This reflections part of our past as humans as well. Upon becoming self conscious as a species, we were forced to contemplate the killing of life for food. Animals were looked at and treated as divine beings, but almost as if they accepted what they were here for. This is what really started sacrifices, animal and human. People in the past (seemingly) had much more respect for the food in which they ate. I wish people would do that now. I wonder if our carrots get jet-lag?

Alex (551) (@hollowinfinity) 9 years, 7 months ago ago

Oh but that being said, I think you need meat in your diet, but most of your diet should be veggies not meat with a side of veggies.

Manimal (2,998) (@manimal) 9 years, 7 months ago ago

@squishy, Tasty? I don’t give a fuck about tasty. I eat for nutrition only.

This so called “research” advocating veganism is a typical case of manipulating the results, it’s really easy to do. The corporates do it for profit all the time, and activists/ideologists do it all the time to get more followers and to validate their beliefs and opinions.

Maintaining a healthy o3:o6 ratio and ph value on a vegan diet is damn near impossible. And all the fructose from the fruit sends you on a sugar rollercoaster. All the undigestible fiber and cellulose lead to fermentation, a buildup of sulfur which acidifies the body and cripples the immune system.
Veganism is unhealthy, that’s a fact.

We are not designed to be herbivores. We have hunter bodies, hunter brains, killer instincts. All the primitive tribes of the world hunt and eat animals. Explain to me why our ancestors developed so many hunting tools if we were supposed to eat only vegetables. Explain to me all the ravaged animal skeletons found at excavations of human villages. Explain the cave paintings depicting the hunting and eating of animals. Explain to me why eating meat makes us so strong. Explain to me why our closest relatives, the chimps, eat meat and are known for cannibalism.
Explain to me why we can digest meat but not cellulose.

You only confirm the statement that vegans are irrational.

I don’t kill more than you do. If I kill an animal to eat it, that means one more life. And by the time I’ve finished it, you’ve had to kill and eat a bunch. How long does it typically take for you to consume a plant that you buy? A single elk or ox can feed me for months.
Nothing has to be intentionally grown for the animals I eat, they eat what grows naturally.
I do NOT go out to restaurants or fast food places. I have standards.

Eating eggs is not killing. The eggs are not alive. They were never fertilized. They’re just as dead as the eggs you pump out once a month, which you throw in the trash.
And if a cow loses her calf, the milk has to go somewhere, or the cow will die. Might as well put it to good use. I rarely drink cow’s milk though.

Meat is healthy. And it doesn’t hurt the environment. CAFOs hurt the environment, but we don’t need those for meat. Big plantations are just as bad for the environment, and for the exact same reasons.
Besides, flying/trucking all those foreign veggies does a lot more bad for the environment. And who’s the biggest consumers of those?

I don’t have pets, I think it’s fucking cruel. That isn’t love.
All animals are equal, that includes us humans.

Get off your high horses, you’re not better than us. You’re just self-righteous.

It’s your loss though, I’m not the one suffering for your veganism.

E.C.F. Doyle (346) (@chekovchameleon) 9 years, 7 months ago ago

@squishy, I would definitely eat a horse or a dog, in fact it is something I plan to do.I would also like to part in the slaughter and butchering of an animal. Not because I’m some sort of sicko, but because I think anyone who is willing to eat and both does not want to take part in the gritty aspect of how meat is obtained or differentiates between which animals are okay to eat is full of shit.

I totally get veganism and really like vegan food, well what I’ve experienced any way, I just like meat too much. However if I ever thought there was a serious chance of a certain movement stopping meat production I would convert to veganism. I know that sounds a bit strange but I really like meat. However If the whole world turned vegan we would have to kill off most the live stock anyway because they have no place in the food chain.

Nickole (67) (@squishy) 9 years, 7 months ago ago

The oils that I mentioned are extremely healthy.

Yes, people do manipulate the results but, you can’t dispute the facts.

Veganism is by far healthier than a meat eaters diet. It’s science. But, we can agree to disagree.

We do not have hunter bodies or the killer instinct, If you put a four year old in a room with a bunny and an apple, the child will eat the apple and play with the bunny. True hunters like the wolves and the bears use their own bodies not tools to catch prey. They rip the flesh from the bone and eat the meat raw. We had to develop these tools to hunt because of the ice age when there wasn’t any vegetation. Humans liked the taste. So, they stuck with it.

And, plants are completely different then animals. Plants are what humans are supposed to eat biologically, and it’s not wrong to eat a plant. What is wrong is KILLING an animal when you could eat a plant instead.

Eating eggs and drinking milk is KILLing, Every time you drink milk, it’s because a calf isn’t. Everytime you eat a factory egg, it’s because those animals were raised for you to use.

Factory farming is a major contribution to the worlds pollution of air, water, and soil. That is a fact.

As I’ve said before I think i am equal to animals therefore i don’t eat them or kill them. I am not self rightous. I do however know the facts and am completely comfortable with my decision and feel healthier and more at peace with myself then I ever did before.

If you are comfortable with your choices and understand the facts then, more power to you. Everyone has to make there own choices in life.

Rob (75) (@facets) 9 years, 7 months ago ago

“Humans are biologically herbivores. We started eating meat and their bi-products as a means of survival”
Do you have proof of that? I’d love to see it.
If we were not meant to eat meat, why can we digest it?

“And, as far as the ethical and moral issues of paying for others to raise and torture animals to slaughter, that is by no means natural. No other animal does that. No other animal drinks milk after weaning. No other animal drinks another animals milk. It is unjustifiable.”
No other animal can drive a car… Does that mean we shouldn’t drive cars?

Nick (554) (@splashartist) 9 years, 7 months ago ago

Why does everyone argue about this kind of shit anyways? Eat what feels good for YOUR body, why do you need to get others to agree with your lifestyle choices?

Vasco (224)C (@vasco) 9 years, 7 months ago ago

@squishy, Funny thing, I used to think like you. If you’d asked me a few month ago what the best diet is, I’d confidently say “Raw Vegan”. Not anymore… because I was open to the truth and realized that a vegan diet is very unhealthy in the long term. If you consider yourself open-minded, please read this book: It’s only $15 for the Kindle edition and it has a lot of valuable information. If after you’ve read it you still think a vegan diet is the best… read it again.

There’s no shame in realizing you were wrong, but it’s stupid to think you’re right and not expose yourself to proof of the contrary (of which you’ll find plenty in the book I recommended).

savmot (135) (@savmot) 9 years, 7 months ago ago

Why eat plants but not meat?

I could equally pose the question to carnivores

Why eat cow but not dog?

why eat pig, but not human? Human sausages would save a lot on funeral costs.

People talk about vegans and vegetarians being self righteous but from what I see meat eaters get very very pissy about people not eating meat. I can only put it down to a defensiveness that stems from contributing to the pain and suffering of other living creatures, feeling within yourself that it’s wrong, but not wanting to change it because you enjoy consumption of the final product. That’s just a guess though, because otherwise, I can’t see why anyone would give a fuck what other people put into their bodies.

Ftr, I chose to be vegan not because of the only due to the killing of animals, more due to the treatment of those animals while they’re alive. It’s also not just about food either, it’s about what you wear, and the products you use.
Personally, I just don’t want anything to hurt or suffer for my benefit. That is my choice.

Except plants, I don’t give a fuck about plants. I like to see them suffer, because I can be an evil bitch at times. Especially apples… I hate apples, I poke them with needles and watch them cry.

Vasco (224)C (@vasco) 9 years, 7 months ago ago

@savmot, “[…] I can’t see why anyone would give a fuck what other people put into their bodies.”

I care when people fuck up their health, be it through veganism, smoking, or other forms of slow (or fast) suicide.

savmot (135) (@savmot) 9 years, 7 months ago ago

@vasco, What, because you found a book that says veganism is unhealthy? look, you can probably find a thousand sources saying that veganism is unhealthy, equally, I can find a thousand sources that will tell you the opposite.
So ultimately, you don’t know anything. Just focus on your own shit.

Ill tell you what I have noticed since becoming vegan though, and thats that I love how as soon as veganism is mentioned suddenly everyone else is the healthiest eater in the world and an expert in nutrition. I know that I’m getting more nutrients now, and place more attention on exactly what I’m putting into my body now than ever before, so don’t you be worrying about my health. You worry about the millions of over weight meat eating Americans out their who are deficient in many vitamins and nutrients that they need because all they eat is meat, dairy and processed crap.

Vasco (224)C (@vasco) 9 years, 7 months ago ago

@savmot, I don’t worry, but if an opportunity to help someone out presents itself, I use it. The reason why I don’t really talk about this with people who eat factory meat, grains and soda as their staples is because they’re not ready for the information I could give them. Vegans, however, (presumably) have an interest in health and might be open to the possibility that they are wrong, since they already changed their eating habits at least once (usually from SAD to vegan).

Btw, do you take any supplements?

savmot (135) (@savmot) 9 years, 7 months ago ago

No, I don’t. Most vegan food replacements are fortified with b12 and vitamin d, though to be fair I’ve never eaten fish and never been a big meat eater, and never eaten red meat and I’ve not suffered for it yet.

Anonymous (254) (@) 9 years, 7 months ago ago

“If you consider yourself open-minded, please read this book:”

There is open minded and there is vacillating from one extreme to another based on the words of people you put baseless faith in.

Regardless, I like cooking so I want to learn more. Can anyone give an argument (that won’t be eaten alive by Google) that explicitly confirms the benefits of eating meat for nutrition? Saying “grains and legumes are poison” is weak at it’s best, everything is a poison long-term. Help people understand the benefit of eating meat vs eating vegetables – a lot of people here seem to tiptoe around actually saying anything useful, besides refuting veganism as a rule.

People are omnivorous by design, so it might help to keep personal opinions out of it if you can actually prove anything concrete.

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