This is only a doubt of mine. I have seen people who do not eat meat cos they think its wrong to kill life. Agreed that animals have life and we are killing them as before we make the dish. But dont plants have life too? So by the same logic shouldnt one also not eat plant stuffs?! Well i have heard people repartee that animals feel pain but plants dont so as to rationalise their stand. Well then give the animals a shot of analgesic before you cut their neck. They wouldnt feel pain either?! And as a matter of fact, since half a century back its been know that even plants feel pain. So this vegan thing, as a means to test our own will or as a measure of discipline is fine, but as a logic guided decision, is it rational indeed or am i missing something?!
“Cats torture their prey.”
Cats play with mice, the way they play with a ball of string. They don’t torture their food anymore than I torture my noodles with a fork.
And people who say vegan food is “healthier” are too stupid to argue with.
Not to point fingers…but you’re stupid enough to think cats torture stuff…so it’s not surprising you find it difficult to argue?
Torture has a clear definition, just like sadism, hunting and instinct. Have a little read through the dictionary. Cats kill prey, killing stuff usually hurts – this is not torture, this is causality. Cats don’t cause pain for the sake of causing pain (torture), they do it for fun, or for survival.
@mimic, “There is open minded and there is vacillating from one extreme to another based on the words of people you put baseless faith in.”
Who told you I changed my mind because I had ‘faith’ in the people whose books I read? Every time I changed my mind was because the new information presented to me made more sense than the one I had before. I learned different things from every book and from the scientific studies and, with time, was able to put everything together and arrived at the conclusion that a raw paleo diet is best.
“Can anyone give an argument (that won’t be eaten alive by Google) that explicitly confirms the benefits of eating meat for nutrition?”
Awesome protein, awesome fat, tons of nutrients (vitamins, minerals, etc), no toxicity, can be eaten raw (unlike legumes and grains).
“Saying “grains and legumes are poison” is weak at it’s best, everything is a poison long-term.”
OK, research these topics: gluten, lectins, phytates, alpha-amylase inhibitors, protease inhibitors. Also, I wrote a post with scientific studies about grains and the paleo diet, might be worth checking out: http://www.vascobrazao.com/2013/02/04/studies-indicate-that-grains-suck-balls/
“Help people understand the benefit of eating meat vs eating vegetables […]”
It’s not either-or, vegetables are good for you, and so is meat.
Looking at the amount of poverty in the world, and the amount of environmental destruction caused by mass farming it doesn’t really seem ethical to eat animal products… By consuming meat the amount of plant matter needed to produce that meat is 10x the energy value of the plant if you get what I mean.
Then think of the carbon footprint of transporting the animals from barn to slaughter, carrying the food to the animal, the packaging of the meat you get from the supermarket or butcher which will hit landfill. It’s not like the meat people are eating is hunted by them in most cases. The animals are subjected (at least in the US) to w lifetime standing on a concrete floor, torn away from their calves etc.
I could go on for a while. I think it’s logical to eat meat if you yourself are going to go through with the hunt and cut its throat yourself, it seems we are far too detached from where our food is coming from these days.
Plus animals have souls :)
I don’t think it’s rational.
Some vegans don’t eat meat because they believe naturally our body is not made to eat meat. I think we can digest meat better than most plants. Also, the way our body works it feels like it’s impossible to get enough calories, especially protein and fat, from plants. I’m not sure if i’m scientifically correct, but a non-vegan is generally bigger and stronger than a vegan because meat protein is optimum for building muscle.
To me it seems more logical that grains and seeds are not ‘meant’ to be eaten, because grains have to be prepared and cannot be eaten raw and as for the seeds, we are meant to shit them out to spread the plants.
Just my idea.
@shera, Those were the arguments that led me to become vegetarian one year ago. Since then, though, I’ve decided to eat free-range organic meat from a trusted source. Just because some animals are treated like shit doesn’t mean one needs to stop eating animals, we simple need to be more conscious about what we’re eating and where it comes from.
@vasco I totally agree that a lot of animals are taken care of and have a chill life and all that, source is important and it’s cool that you’re free range organic, I think that makes a pretty big difference. Ah however I watched forks over knives and my thoughts towards animal products have never been the same and I won’t go back to being a massive animal consumer again.. If you like meat do not watch this documentary lol it made me fear for my red meat loving life
“Awesome protein, awesome fat, tons of nutrients (vitamins, minerals, etc), no toxicity, can be eaten raw (unlike legumes and grains).”
Proteins, fats and all nutrients can be achieved via veg diet too though? No toxicity, really? I have never heard that before. Everything I’ve ever read infers that regardless of what you ingest, you’re ingesting toxins to some degree, whether it be water, air, meat or broccoli. I also didn’t know that we could eat meat raw either (besides sushi, I guess). What else can be eaten raw?
“OK, research these topics: gluten, lectins, phytates, alpha-amylase inhibitors, protease inhibitors. Also, I wrote a post with scientific studies about grains and the paleo diet, might be worth checking out: http://www.vascobrazao.com/2013/02/04/studies-indicate-that-grains-suck-balls/
It’s not either-or, vegetables are good for you, and so is meat.”
Yes, but I would like to understand why veg without meat is bad for you. I’m not so much interested in the pros and cons as the consensus that you have to eat meat to be healthy. As I said, legumes and grains are a weak argument, just like saying eating steak twice a day for your whole life, is a weak argument.
@mimic, dudeeee… i have out door cat. when.. them tortue they are hungry they kill prey as soon as they can, but when they arent they “play” with it. to cats its not torture, they are just having fun by causing pain to prey. but to that prey its battle for life and death, trying to escape. its like “torture” to them, agony or something.
ok lol, grammar nazi … then humans dpnt torture animals like vegans are writing. i mean i just said “cats torture their prey” to point that out. torture is relative :P
@mimic, “Proteins, fats and all nutrients can be achieved via veg diet too though?”
Not all nutrients (B12 ring a bell?), plus you’d get the ratios wrong (o3:o6, PUFA:SaFA, and several other micronutrient ratios). What you’re looking for, though, is addressed in the books I recommended in my post, so I won’t into more detail.
I’ve been where you are, so I’m deducing that no amount of arguments will change your mind. Go straight to the sources and find out for yourself. Or better: try out a raw paleo diet for yourself and see if you feel better! The only way you’re really going to KNOW is by trying stuff out for yourself anyway.
I’m curious, if you fell down a hole and broke your leg, is the hole torturing you? Relatively, you’re in pain, and you’re in pain because of the hole…
Torture, is arbitrary intention to cause pain. Anything without intention is just happenstance. It’s a cats nature to eat and not be eaten. Pain doesn’t factor into it from my perspective, it’s just good old fashioned fun that they can satisfy as easily with a ball of string.
“Not all nutrients (B12 ring a bell?)”
“I’ve been where you are,”
Do you think I’m a vegetarian?
“so I’m deducing that no amount of arguments will change your mind.”
I’m not looking for arguments as much as facts. Nevermind.
@mimic, I’m done with this discussion (got stuff to do, life and everything xD), just one last thing:
That sucks. It doesn’t have the B12 we need, it has B12 analogues that the body can barely use and may actually compromise the absorption of real B12.
“That sucks. It doesn’t have the B12 we need, it has B12 analogues that the body can barely use and may actually compromise the absorption of real B12.”
Dairy and eggs, then? Or algae, if you are looking for vegan alternatives. Enjoy your life.
You only need to spend about 2 hours researching to discover that some of the greatest contributors in history, consumed a vegetarian / vegan diet. Do a quick google and you might be surprised.
The golden rule of all world religions is “do unto others, as you would have them do unto you”, and “thou shall not kill”. Animals are sentient beings who qualify as ‘others’.
For the sake of convenience, habit, taste and tradition many consume animal products still, these are the main reasons. Health is not a reason, when there is considerable evidence to support that a plant based diet is far more healthier than a diet including animal products. Do some research if you don’t believe me. Start with ‘the China study’.
And I’ll leave you with a video for those who think it is natural.
@squishy @facets, ““Humans are biologically herbivores. We started eating meat and their bi-products as a means of survival”
So far from the truth- Anyone know anything about anthropology? Monkeys eat insects for proteins, small rodents. If they have the choice, they will eat the insects and rodents instead. They can even use it to find mating partners and things like that. The stomach of both primates and humans is designed for the utilization of both meat and vegetables. Keep in mind, I still believe Vegetables/greens should be the main part of your diet, but I also think we need meat to biologically survive.
Pretty sure we evolved on shellfish, insects, vegetables, nuts, fruit, fish, mammals in that order. Or something close to that.
Vegans: Stop being dumb!
Vegans: Stop being dumb!
Eating organisms who are composed of many other organisms’ nutrients is a shortcut to a wide expanse of nutrition.
@hollowinfinity, ‘ I also think we need meat to biologically survive.’
The fact is, we don’t need meat or animal products to survive. Vegan foods are fortified with the vitamins that vegans may lack from not consuming meat, so what the hell is the excuse for the suffering that the meat and dairy industry causes? It’s not like it’s hidden. You can youtube slaughterhouses, or animal testing centres and see quite clearly we treat other living creatures, and I cannot fathom how anyone can consider it acceptable in any way.
Maybe we did evolve on meat, but we didn’t evolve on torture.
Anywho, wtf are vegetables, nuts and fruits if they are not organisms?
Vegans: Stop being dumb!
Just because something has a face doesn’t make it > a carrot or a blueberry. This is survival of the fittest – it works this way. It doesn’t work the other way lol, this Earth is not a hospice for all creatures – it is war. Again, it works this way. There wouldn’t be growth under the vegan ideal, and the plants you eat would have never evolved.
And the human being would still be a single celled organism. Good shit.
On the topic of torture – that is only a sadistic concept that the egoic mind has created. The egoic mind also amplifies pain through emotion making torture even possible. A cat killing its prey in the way it does is probably just its intelligent means of making the kill without spoiling the meal? Minimal bleeding?
ANYWHO, death doesn’t exist, life is a dream, and empathy is a selfish trait.
@savmot, You realize we share 25% DNA with a goddamn banana? I don’t want some designer food in my system. I want real food. I’d prefer if everyone could get their meats from their local farmer, catch it yourself, or fish. I don’t support cruelty, but did you not catch my post on why animal and human sacrifices even began in the past? Because we realized and had to account for the need to consume other life forms- it is unavoidable. We honored them the best we could. We considered them divine beings-willfully put on this Earth with the knowledge of what they were there for. We even sacrificed our own people to show the gratitude we had for our food. Vegans..make me shake my head.
Walk down the road-try to think about the life you destroy. Wash your hands, sanitize- See how much bacteria you kill. It’s unavoidable, and you aren’t even eating the bacteria-wasted life?
Like I said, meat shouldn’t be the base of your diet, but its needed.