Is Vegan logic rational??

 Baba (@myselfbaba22) 8 years, 9 months ago

This is only a doubt of mine. I have seen people who do not eat meat cos they think its wrong to kill life. Agreed that animals have life and we are killing them as before we make the dish. But dont plants have life too? So by the same logic shouldnt one also not eat plant stuffs?! Well i have heard people repartee that animals feel pain but plants dont so as to rationalise their stand. Well then give the animals a shot of analgesic before you cut their neck. They wouldnt feel pain either?! And as a matter of fact, since half a century back its been know that even plants feel pain. So this vegan thing, as a means to test our own will or as a measure of discipline is fine, but as a logic guided decision, is it rational indeed or am i missing something?!

January 10, 2013 at 9:49 am
Nakedape (112) (@nakedape) 8 years, 8 months ago ago

@hollowinfinity,

“I didn’t start the thread, I just think being vegan is kind of odd when the argument is animal cruelty. If you hunt and fish on your own or work with local farmers, I don’t see how anyone can use that argument.”

I agree there are more humane methods over factory farming, but murder is still murder. If you don’t think killing an animal is cruel, than I would like to know what your definition of cruel is.

“I will not go hungry over the idea that animals out there have a bad life.”

If you live in the western world, you likely have access to a range of foods and supplements which will provide you with all the necessary nutrients for a healthy diet consisting of zero animal products. Considering this, the majority of reasons why people continue to consume animal products are taste, tradition, habit or convenience. None of which, in my opinion are adequate justification.

“No one is suggesting that because things die, you can just kill everything. Eating is a fact of life. I find it ironic that people are trying to minimize their effect on Earth as an argument. How much energy are you wasting, right now? Do you turn the water off when you shampoo and brush your teeth? Do you recycle everything? If you don’t, then you are part of the cause for countless, countless death across the entire globe. Do you give to charity and help the fellow man, everywhere you go? If you don’t then you are responsible as well for the starvation of so many people on this globe. ”

It is ironic and it is hypocritical but this is a straw-man fallacy. Just because someone might be a vegan but drive a hummer, does not mean that eating meat is okay.

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Alex (551) (@hollowinfinity) 8 years, 8 months ago ago

@nakedape, “I agree there are more humane methods over factory farming, but murder is still murder. If you don’t think killing an animal is cruel, than I would like to know what your definition of cruel is.”
I never said it wasn’t cruel-just a fact of life. Murder is murder, and regardless of what you eat, you are murdering. In a way this is almost similar to an abortion debate. What constitutes life-all that jazz. There probably isn’t a 100% right answer to be had..not right now- We live in a time surrounded by ethical situations. We are forced to contemplate morality, and that is good.

“If you live in the western world, you likely have access to a range of foods and supplements which will provide you with all the necessary nutrients for a healthy diet consisting of zero animal products. Considering this, the majority of reasons why people continue to consume animal products are taste, tradition, habit or convenience. None of which, in my opinion are adequate justification.”
I eat meat because it’s good for me. It keeps me healthy. I mostly eat fish, but meat is meat. I do not agree with factory farms, but I also don’t agree with the supplement method. I think it is very harmful, especially if you raise a child in that manner.

Where do you get your water from?

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savmot (135) (@savmot) 8 years, 8 months ago ago

@hollowinfinity, ‘I find it ironic that people are trying to minimize their effect on Earth as an argument. How much energy are you wasting, right now? Do you turn the water off when you shampoo and brush your teeth? Do you recycle everything? If you don’t, then you are part of the cause for countless, countless death across the entire globe. Do you give to charity and help the fellow man, everywhere you go? If you don’t then you are responsible as well for the starvation of so many people on this globe.’

Again, so If you aren’t going to do EVERYTHING to make the world a better place, don’t do ANYTHING? I find that kind of odd?

” I just think being vegan is kind of odd when the argument is animal cruelty.’

There are lot’s of reasons why people are vegan. Animal cruelty is part of it. I do understand what you are saying about buying local organic meat, but giving up meat is actually quite a small part of being vegan.
I’ve not had to give up meat, because I don’t like it anyway, I’ve had to give up the sweet stuff and dairy, and the convenience of buying any cosmetics I feel like.

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Alex (551) (@hollowinfinity) 8 years, 8 months ago ago

@savmot, refer to my last post

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Alex (551) (@hollowinfinity) 8 years, 8 months ago ago

@savmot, You are under the assumption that I think its horrible to kill animals for food. I don’t. Treating animals cruel, and inhumane deaths–yeah, thats not cool. I never argued that. When I meant organic, I wasn’t talking about meat..I was talking about the vegetables and shit you do eat.

I’m just sayin, you probably do way worse things for the health of life than if you weren’t a vegan. It doesn’t make a difference. Granted, caring about what you buy, and which products are best for you and the environment-thats great. Everyone should do that, I just don’t don’t agree with being a vegan.

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Anonymous (1) (@) 8 years, 8 months ago ago

@nakedape, haha build a wildlife crossing….you’re a troll. The real world doesn’t work that way. and @chekovchameleon yeah good point, but the bottom line is would you rather see a family fatally crash there car or maybe people just get over themselves and eat more venison and in turn prevent such things.

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Nakedape (112) (@nakedape) 8 years, 8 months ago ago

@hollowinfinity,

Health is important, and I agree raising a child on solely a plant based diet might raise concerns.

I haven’t done much research as to whether supplements are as effective as eating naturally, however I would guess you are likely correct. Having said that, I personally live in a warm climate, and I’m outside often so Vitamin D is not an issue for me. The only supplement I take is Vitamin B12, probably twice a week.

I was hesitant to jump right into the whole plant based diet thing 100%, and if it weren’t for my moral views, I would probably do what you are doing, and include the occasional fish or other animal product, because I too love the taste of fish, bacon, eggs, milk, cheese etc.. It tastes great and I won’t deny it, but for the sake of my taste buds I can’t justify it to myself.

The convenience aspect is big aswell, I mean food is probably one of the oldest traditions in the world, and we have built an entire civilization around the consumption of animal products it is so engrained into everyday life. Even in the western world, not every restaurant you go to has an animal free meal, and, of course, you are likely the only person within your group of friends who doesn’t eat meat – so it is a challenge.

If you are interested in looking into the health aspect further, I would encourage you to do some more research, look into adding some super foods to your diet like goji berries, cocoa powder, maca root, spirulina, hemp seeds, acai berry, chia seeds etc.. These sorts of foods make up for many of the nutrients found in animal products and in many cases are actually the healthier option. I would also recommend you check out ‘The China Study’ which some people discount as not completely comprehensive, however it will give you insight into studies done comparing animal based diets to a plant based one.

For what it’s worth, I consumed animal products daily and in high quantities for the majority of my life, so I do not pass judgement on anyone who continues to do so, however I would encourage all to look into it further as it may turn out to be one of the most important decisions you make in your life.

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savmot (135) (@savmot) 8 years, 8 months ago ago

@hollowinfinity, ‘You are under the assumption that I think its horrible to kill animals for food’

I’m really not. What gave you that impression?

‘When I meant organic, I wasn’t talking about meat.’

When I said organic I was refferring to you talking about how it’s best to get your meat from local farmers and fisherman. That would usually be organic.

‘I’m just sayin, you probably do way worse things for the health of life than if you weren’t a vegan.’

Not really, before I was just doing those things, AND contributing to a load of other stuff.
Now I’m just doing those things. Damage limitation.
I acknowledge that just about every aspect of out lives in the west is built upon the suffering of someone or something else. If you lived a 100% ethically you wouldn’t eat and couldn’t buy anything or shop anywhere. It’s why I do things like not buying from companies who are not renowned for using slave labour, buying fair trade etc. You can only do so much and I’m going to do what I can.
You don’t have to agree with being vegan. You don’t even have to think about veganism.

However, before you state ‘I don’t agree with veganism’ you should probably do some actual research, which I don’t imagine you’ve done a lot of given that you didn’t know why fishing was so bad.

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Alex (551) (@hollowinfinity) 8 years, 8 months ago ago

@savmot, I don’t think there is anything wrong with me taking my fishing pole, catching a fish- gutting it, and eating it. I appreciate the fish’s life, and what it gives me, just the same as I appreciate all the life it took for all of my food.

Do you use plastic? In that case, you ARE contributing to one of the biggest messes on the Earth- Plastic is ruining our food chain, slowly. That is much worse than using certain species for food, because the end result is everyone dies. Pollution, maybe not bad for the Earth itself, but bad for our, and other life-forms health. You most likely-as well as me-do worse things than anyone who eats meat or even supports slaugherhouses.

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savmot (135) (@savmot) 8 years, 8 months ago ago

@hollowinfinity,
This is like smashing my face against a brick wall.
There is nothing damaging, or wrong in the mass consumption of animal products. You are right.

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Peter G (0) (@grunny218) 8 years, 8 months ago ago

For lunch today i had a mcdouble and a mcchicken which I then turned into a mcgangbang. I had a nice side of salty fries and topped everything off with a shamrock shake, which really made the whole meal. The shake that is, they are so good.
Thank you for your time.

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Alex (551) (@hollowinfinity) 8 years, 8 months ago ago

@savmot, You are completely not seeing what I am saying.

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savmot (135) (@savmot) 8 years, 8 months ago ago

@hollowinfinity, No obviously not. It looked to me like you are saying that being vegan is stupid because I use plastic and plastic damages the environment….So what’s the point in doing anything.

There is none.

I’m enjoying this McDonalds. Nom, nom, nom.

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Anonymous (328) (@) 8 years, 8 months ago ago

Meanwhile… starving children around the world are picking through garbage for a bite of shit. Veganism is overrated. Making a difference? That’s just wishful thinking.

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Anonymous (254) (@) 8 years, 8 months ago ago

“Do you use plastic? In that case, you ARE contributing to one of the biggest messes on the Earth- Plastic is ruining our food chain, slowly. That is much worse than using certain species for food, because the end result is everyone dies”

I bet you guys all condone animal shaving too. EVEN IN THE WINTER!

Well I don’t. I shiver. You’re all monsters.

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Anonymous (2,654) (@) 8 years, 8 months ago ago

Humans make bagpipes out of animals for the sake of music. The edible meat is of course eaten. That doesn’t mean songs are about blood and guts everywhere.

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Anonymous (2,654) (@) 8 years, 8 months ago ago

Ethical argumentations are the most controversial. The extreme ethics are not even about what’s good for everyone, it’s about what someone can do. A lot of people emphasize on what they simply can. Meanwhile there are people surviving without food. Veganism is not overrated, it’s exaggerated. You can survive anyway you can, although in order for you to survive, you have to take care first of what will feed you, no matter if you’re watering it or breeding it. That’s rational. Humans do that shit. What they also do is obsess over themselves and become illogical and their arguments become more important than their appreciation of the gratitude in what they can afford to survive. Maybe ration and rationality have something in common.

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Anonymous (328) (@) 8 years, 8 months ago ago

@savmot, Wishful thinking: Grains don’t topple corrupt governments, monopolies, crime and financial debt.
Overrated: because there are so much more factors to consider for things to actually be better. Not some overly dramatic video about grains. I had to mute it to watch it btw.

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Anonymous (328) (@) 8 years, 8 months ago ago

@savmot, Since you brought up world hunger, when in my first post i was just partly joking.

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savmot (135) (@savmot) 8 years, 8 months ago ago

@motorik, ‘, Wishful thinking: Grains don’t topple corrupt governments, monopolies, crime and financial debt.’

No, you’re right, but it’s one of the many

‘factors to consider for things to actually be better’

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Nadja (0) (@nadja) 8 years, 8 months ago ago

@adamd, you definitely made the most sense to me! I salute your discussion style :)

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Some_Ego-reinforcing_Label (66) (@johnkorvac) 8 years, 8 months ago ago

@myselfbaba22,

Because we live in the “Ctrl + Alt + Delete Generation” where people have limited attention spans… i took the liberty of taking a few important screenshots from 5 nutritional textbooks (each over 500 pages long)…

These screenshots are tables & lists of foods that contain phytochemicals that are scientifically proven to prevent, or slow down, the onset and/or metastasis of cancerous cells…

These foods are primarily specific fruits and vegetables that hosts these wonderful phytochemicals… the studies also reveal that animal fats lie on the opposite end of the spectrum… meaning they are more cancer-causing than they are meant to do any good for our long-term health…

The screenshot images are visually-friendly, and show an important point… so check it out:

http://woktoss.com/?p=12108

=========================

the scientific data is out there, and the nutritional consensus is loud and clear… it has been known in the vegan community that all the essential nutrients in animal-based foods can be found in a diverse range of fruits/plant-based foods… that said, it is possible to live a healthy, energetic life without consuming meat whatsoever.

but humans tend to respond to their inner brain lobes of instinctual gratifications such as eating and sex… more so than adhering to the more recently evolved, outer brain that are responsible for logical, critical thinking…

it’s why many would opt out from having protected sex despite knowing the STD/HIV risks involved… or smokers overlooking cigarette carton boxes displaying images of graphic, cancer-infected black lungs… the reward-systems in our limbic system overpowers rational thinking by default.

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Vasco (224)C (@vasco) 8 years, 8 months ago ago

@johnkorvac, “the nutritional consensus is loud and clear… it has been known in the vegan community that all the essential nutrients in animal-based foods can be found in a diverse range of fruits/plant-based foods…”

Not true… neither the consensus nor the assumption.

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YHVH (462) (@spaceghost) 8 years, 8 months ago ago

@myselfbaba22, logically, it seems we as humans are a parasite. We are devouring this creature, this living thing we call earth stripping the land, sucking the inside dry also, to no benefit to earth.

That’s just how I see it. Think about it. The things that are bad for us and the planet are what most of us are into. There is no way to live without destrying life. What does that say about life?

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