Is Vegan logic rational??

 Baba (@myselfbaba22) 8 years, 9 months ago

This is only a doubt of mine. I have seen people who do not eat meat cos they think its wrong to kill life. Agreed that animals have life and we are killing them as before we make the dish. But dont plants have life too? So by the same logic shouldnt one also not eat plant stuffs?! Well i have heard people repartee that animals feel pain but plants dont so as to rationalise their stand. Well then give the animals a shot of analgesic before you cut their neck. They wouldnt feel pain either?! And as a matter of fact, since half a century back its been know that even plants feel pain. So this vegan thing, as a means to test our own will or as a measure of discipline is fine, but as a logic guided decision, is it rational indeed or am i missing something?!

January 10, 2013 at 9:49 am
Mike M (13) (@mikem) 8 years, 8 months ago ago

@nakedape, I call Godwin’s law! But seriously, I never met the guy, but a lot of people are super pissed of with him, and I have no reason to mistrust their judgement. But we have a social contract with other humans – we agree not to kill each other for the most part, and that has worked out for us as a species (overpopulation problems notwithstanding). Mr. Hitler broke that contract and now must suffer the consequences of being berated over and over again in every internet discussion ever undertaken. We have no such contract with cows, fish, chickens, moose, elk, geese, ducks, snakes, goats, stoats, etc. Not that any of these animals are likely to eat us, but I would be surprised if cows became vegetarians purely for moral reasons.

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Manimal (2,998) (@manimal) 8 years, 8 months ago ago

@savmot, Well, you’re wasting as many animal lives as anyone else, you just don’t eat them. How is that nicer to the animals? The thing about plants feeling pain and fear is proven, look it up.

Of course it is not wrong to live how you see fit. But thinking that your ways are nicer to animals, that’s bullshit, no offense.

@squishy, Tortured their whole lives? Nope, that’s the industrial livestock, real farms do not torture the animals. I’ve seen the procedure, both at the farm and at normal slaughterhouses, they die instantaneously, they don’t even make a sound. Besides, the United States of the Abysmal are much worse than the civilized world, I’m not American, I don’t eat American meat, I don’t partake in their rotten ways.

And you know what? Killing an animal is much more merciful than cutting off its reproductive organs and forcing it into submission, dooming it to a miserable life of servitude. A lot of so called “animal friends” do that, they’re so full of shit.
Keeping pets is exploitation of animals, it’s vile.
A lot of pets and livestock have become so mutated by what humans do to them, that there is no hope for their genome, the can’t survive on their own anymore. Killing them would be more merciful.

@nakedape,

Irrational: Assuming that just because an intelligent person says something it’s right. Intelligent people are just as full of shit as everyone else, have just as many dumbfounded beliefs, etc. The smartest person can say the dumbest thing, and vice versa.

Irrational: Using those people as references, when they lack proper expertise, and in fact most of those people were clearly VERY unhealthy.

Irrational: Ignoring the bona fide results.

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Alex (551) (@hollowinfinity) 8 years, 8 months ago ago

@savmot, “No obviously not. It looked to me like you are saying that being vegan is stupid because I use plastic and plastic damages the environment….So what’s the point in doing anything.

There is none.”

What I am saying is that if you truly care about animals being tortured, then being a vegan is logical to you, but its really the least effect thing to do to change that. Plastic kills way more animals, in worse ways than slaugherhouses do. I’ve also stated many times that I don’t agree with the mass killing and production of all these animals in the way its done, but I think its completely acceptable to use local farms, and hunt/gather your own food.

Im not saying, ‘well other bad things exist, so fuck it all’ i’m saying if you care, start with the biggest issues. Actually DO something about it. Being a vegan is doing nothing for animals at all, except wasting food. That, and you miss all the health benefits from meat and animal products like dairy.

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Sephyr (15) (@sephyr) 8 years, 8 months ago ago

“Plastic kills way more animals” “start with the biggest issues. *Actually* DO something about it.” —@hollowinfinity

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ALEC (25) (@ALEC) 8 years, 8 months ago ago

@myselfbaba22, Many plants are designed to be edible as a means of spreading their seed. For instance, apple seeds are covered with a sugary fruit specifically for the purpose of an animal to eat it and discard the core (apple seeds are poisonous) in order to for the seed to reach the ground. This is only one example of the complexity of plant intelligence.

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savmot (135) (@savmot) 8 years, 8 months ago ago

@hollowinfinity, ‘ Plastic kills way more animals, in worse ways than slaugherhouses do.’

I must be honest I was not aware of this issue. Can you tell me how plastic leads animals to, not only live in poor conditions all their lives, but also kills over 100 billion animals a year?

‘I’ve also stated many times that I don’t agree with the mass killing and production of all these animals in the way its done, but I think its completely acceptable to use local farms’

I think if you want to eat meat then local, free range is definitely the way to go, however
when the 6 billion people on earth that get to eat, all use local farms, how do you think that’s going to work? The reason the mass production exists is to meet the demand. Vegans are lowering the demand.

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Alex (551) (@hollowinfinity) 8 years, 8 months ago ago

@savmot, It would work, and fix people’s diets at the same time, everyone would go local-They would have to have more animals, yes, but there is a limit, which limits how often people can even eat meat. Granted, I think meat is good, but it should not be the main part of any diet. It would force everyone to eat less meat.

As far as plastic goes, it is taking over the plankton. The very basis of our food chain. It may not be as noticeable now, but eventually plastic could very well lead to the extinction of all animals, because the food chain is damaged enough. It’s horrible for the environment because it is not really recycled. You don’t get much money from plastic after its been used. People at a dump will grab metals because you get money, and leave the plastic for the poor people. Plastic doesn’t biodegrade either, it only breaks into smaller pieces via light, or environment. The smaller it gets, the more easily it becomes part of everything. That, and no one really has any clue whats really IN plastic. (they do to a certain extent.)

So everyone now could turn vegan, but by the time the world is completely off animals- there would be none left.

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Nakedape (112) (@nakedape) 8 years, 8 months ago ago

@mikem, Lol, I can’t believe someone came up with that. Well, it could have been pol pot, stalin, mao or any other genocidal dictator. As for the social contract, yeah I agree – I’m glad we have a social contract not to kill each other. There should also be a social contract not to harm our fellow creatures with whom destiny has surrounded us.

@manimal,

It seems you didn’t even read the quotes or my question. Which person(s) didn’t you agree with? Or are you discounting everything that was said on the account of – they didn’t have PHD’s in nutrition and ‘intelligent people aren’t always right’?

Or,

How about this one. The Golden Rule of All World Religions –

Christianity
All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye so to them; for this is the law and the prophets.
Matthew 7:1

Confucianism
Do not do to others what you would not like yourself. Then there will be no resentment against you, either in the family or in the state.
Analects 12:2

Buddhism
Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful.
Udana-Varga 5,1

Hinduism
This is the sum of duty; do naught onto others what you would not have them do unto you.
Mahabharata 5,1517

Islam
No one of you is a believer until he desires for his brother that which he desires for himself.
Sunnah

Judaism
What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellowman. This is the entire Law; all the rest is commentary.
Talmud, Shabbat 3id

Taoism
Regard your neighbor’s gain as your gain, and your neighbor’s loss as your own loss.
Tai Shang Kan Yin P’ien

Zoroastrianism
That nature alone is good which refrains from doing another whatsoever is not good for itself.
Dadisten-I-dinik, 94,5

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erica (0) (@erica1112) 8 years, 8 months ago ago

@myselfbaba22,

Plants do not feel pain – they don’t have brains.

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erica (0) (@erica1112) 8 years, 8 months ago ago

@hollowinfinity, What health benefits from animals and dairy exactly? Explain.

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KevinSG (105) (@flyingrhino) 8 years, 8 months ago ago

Who knew that this was such a heated topic here on HE.

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Nakedape (112) (@nakedape) 8 years, 8 months ago ago

@erica1112, They do feel pain, but your right, they don’t have a brain or nervous system and aren’t sentient like animals.

I don’t think you can argue the distinction between broccoli and a cow.

So to answer the OP’s original question ‘is vegan logic rational?’
“Veganism is the only rational, logical response to accepting that it is morally wrong to inflict unnecessary suffering and death on animals.”

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She Ra (1) (@shera) 8 years, 7 months ago ago

“People look at me as a vegan and conclude that since I stepped on a snail or because the vegetables I eat resulted in a tractor death for a squirrel somewhere in Paraguay that somehow vegans are hypocrites, which of course they’re not since perfection is an unattainable goal and is something to be driven towards, never actually achieved. The difference between you and the vegan standing next to you is that while you’re both going to step on a bug tomorrow, they’ve decided to dedicate their lives to as little harm as possible, completely independent from what you do. So in no way does the protozoan life form they step on negate your responsibility for the lamb you’re paying a stranger to cut tomorrow. And falling 1% short of an unattainable goal is really good when you’re standing next to someone who won’t even try.”
Shelley Williams

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Thus Spoke Haze (102) (@ehsan) 8 years, 7 months ago ago

@dmtageous, nailed it.

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Nakedape (112) (@nakedape) 8 years, 6 months ago ago

@ehsan,

“Animals eat other animals.”
Correct, animals do eat other animals. I don’t think anyone would deny this.

“We are animals who through evolution have acquired teeth that are designed to eat meat.”
They are designed to allow us to do a variety of things, eating meat is one such use.

“I’m not saying we have to, its just part of being an animal who is an omnivore.”
om·ni·vore
/ˈämnəˌvôr/
Noun
An animal or person that eats food of both plant and animal origin.

“I don’t think its disrespectful to eat animals. Its just part of life.”
Would you consider it disrespectful for someone to eat you?

“And in response to midnight dragon saying plants look good and smell good to be eaten, they look good and smell good to attract insects for pollination. Plants grow thorns and are poisonous to deter animals from eating them. There’s a plant in the amazon that smells like rotten meat even. And since emotions and feelings are chemical reactions in the brain I’m not so sure that they still reside in steaks and hamburgers when you eat them.”
To suggest that animals and plants are the same, is to suggest that you as an animal are no different than broccoli or an apple.

“I’m open to anything though, given the evidence. I don’t hunt and I don’t exclusively eat meat or look down on those who are vegan.”
Would moral, environmental or health evidence suffice?

“I’m just an animal living life according to evolution and biology.”
ev·o·lu·tion
/ˌevəˈlo͞oSHən/
Noun
The process by which different kinds of living organisms are thought to have developed and diversified from earlier forms during the…
The gradual development of something, esp. from a simple to a more complex form.
Synonyms
development – growth – progress

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Thus Spoke Haze (102) (@ehsan) 8 years, 6 months ago ago

@nakedape, Those weren’t my comments, but I would be glad to defend them against your well written counter-arguments:

“Correct, animals do eat other animals. I don’t think anyone would deny this.”
Correct.

“They are designed to allow us to do a variety of things, eating meat is one such use.”
Yes, human teeth have most certainly adapted to eating me. So then you agree, good for you.

“Omnivore /ˈämnəˌvôr/ Noun
An animal or person that eats food of both plant and animal origin.”
We know that, thank you for your intelligent input.

“Would you consider it disrespectful for someone to eat you?”
Are you joking? If you’re joking, then I’m overreacting. If not, you’re ridiculous. How can you compare cannibalism to me eating beef? And if you’re talking about animals, I would feel many things if I was being eating by a tiger, but disrespect would not be one of them.

“To suggest that animals and plants are the same, is to suggest that you as an animal are no different than broccoli or an apple.”
To suggest that because two separate things share a similar characteristic they are the same thing, would be no different than a broccoli fucking apple.

“Would moral, environmental or health evidence suffice?”
Yes it would, that’s why I eat meat.

“ev·o·lu·tion”
Again with the fucking definitions. We are not stupid. I feel like you’re trying to be snarky with this one, especially with the little “development – growth – progress,” but that was bullshit. I’m sorry man, I might be in a bad mood, but holy crap you just typed a lot of nothing.

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Nakedape (112) (@nakedape) 8 years, 6 months ago ago

@ehsan,

Apologies if I came across as being snarky. I am aware of this flaw of mine but its just me trying to logically debate.

Ie. “I’m just an animal living life according to evolution and biology.”
What does this statement mean exactly? Is this an assumption that because one is a product of evolution and biology there is justification to continue a certain habit?

“I don’t think its disrespectful to eat animals. Its just part of life.”
Perhaps it is not disrespectful to eat animals, depending on the respect that is given to the animal who has died so that you can eat it.

I was not joking when I asked if you would find it disprectful for someone to eat you. I did not necessarily mean cannabilism. Hypothetically for example, suppose we were not the dominant species on the planet, but were equivalent to say what cows are to us humans today. Would you find it ‘disrespectful’ to be treated in a similar manner to how cows are treated by us today?

There is plenty of reasons why one should reduce or entirely cut out meat consumption. It is up to you to do the research though. Having said that, here is one video on the topic.

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Michael (2) (@herbeater) 8 years, 4 months ago ago

@ehsan,

“Yes, human teeth have most certainly adapted to eating me. So then you agree, good for you.”

Our biology is also adapted to favor opportunistic rape, and rape is extremely common in the animal kingdom. Does that mean that rape is justifiable?

“Would you consider it disrespectful for someone to eat you?”

“Are you joking? If you’re joking, then I’m overreacting. If not, you’re ridiculous. How can you compare cannibalism to me eating beef? And if you’re talking about animals, I would feel many things if I was being eating by a tiger, but disrespect would not be one of them.”

Never forget that you are an animal. The significant difference is that eating non-human animals is justified by our society. The fact that we are more intelligent really has no bearing on our status as moral beings. Further, if it did, does that mean it’s okay to eat people with extremely low intelligence? Would aliens be justified in eating us if they were smarter than us? How much smarter do you have to be to justify eating another sentient being?

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DaFunks (366)M (@Dafunks) 8 years, 4 months ago ago

I’ve not read all the posts so this may have been said. I was vegan and it had nothing to do with animal rights or death. It was for the health benefits. I was the most healthy I’ve ever been. I now eat meat because of back of control… I feel crap. Hope I can regain my self control again.

I think most he pro meat people have no idea the damage meat does to us. We don’t need it. We could solve many food problems by not feeding cattle and all the space they take could be used to grow food. Animals we use for food eat much more than we get back from them.

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DaFunks (366)M (@Dafunks) 8 years, 4 months ago ago

Sorry for poor typing. I’m on my phone.

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Ray Butler (1,423)M (@trek79) 8 years, 4 months ago ago

Plants do not want to be eaten either, that is why they have evolved sap, thorns, bark, poisons, etc. It is pretty sad to rule out consideration for some life but hold other life in an elevated regard.

Animals are a good source of protein, I personally think that these days red meat, mammal meat, has a lot of health problems that could arise from it, such as cholesterol and bowl cancer, a focus on white meats like fish and fowl is a more logical source of protein. The thing with red meat is that those animals are much larger than fish or fowl and so more people can be fed from one soul.

Eating animals is not a morality issue, no more than eating plants or any biological material, but I will agree that the treatment of animals for and before their death is an issue that we should be looking into better regulating toward humane standards.

Death is not a bad thing, we just think it is, but treating animals inhumanely IS a bad thing and that has little to do with the act of eating animal flesh and more to do with cost cutting for profit, and other times for religious or cultural traditional preparation.

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Michael (2) (@herbeater) 8 years, 4 months ago ago

@dafunks,

Hey man, technically, you don’t have to cut out all meat from your diet to reap the benefits of a plant-based diet. From what I understand, dairy is the worst form animal product you can put in your body. Stay as far away as you can from processed meat.

Understand that we are all learning, and that learning is a wonderful thing. There’s no need to beat yourself up over a perceived failure. A large portion of our culture is based on the consumption of animal products. Government run schools are basically indoctrination centers (and not just for eating animals). So it’s perfectly understandable for there to be some resistance to change.

Take it one day at a step at a moment at a time. Instead of cutting foods, crowd them out with new foods you enjoy. I understand that you are going vegan (again) for health. I would recommend introducing fermented foods into your diet like sauerkraut, kimchi and sauerkraut into your diet. Good luck with all your endeavors!

This article has a lot of great information as well.

zenhabits.net/PLANTS

How to make sauerkraut:

http://bonzaiaphrodite.com/2010/09/how-to-make-sauerkraut-at-home/

pickles:

http://bonzaiaphrodite.com/2010/09/how-to-make-fermented-pickles/

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Michael (2) (@herbeater) 8 years, 4 months ago ago

@trek79,

“Plants do not want to be eaten either, that is why they have evolved sap, thorns, bark, poisons, etc. It is pretty sad to rule out consideration for some life but hold other life in an elevated regard.”

I do not speak for all vegans, but as a vegan and rationalist, I do not find that this is the main factor. When we use animals for food (and other purposes), they suffer and lose their autonomy. They are here for their own reasons, not for our use. I know that might sound radical to some people, but consider that the same statement applied to other groups (women, people with dark skin) until extremely recently in our history might have seemed just as radical to some folks (to some, they are still radical). Further, there is no evidence that plants have anything resembling sentience. They do not have a nervous system. Yes, they react to stimuli, but so does everything that is alive. And we’re back where we started.

Also, when you say “they don’t want to be eaten”, you seem to be assigning agency to the individual plant, as if the plant is born and thinks “Gee, I sure don’t want to be eaten, I’m going to independently form a woody, spiky covering around my organism!”. Plants have saps, thorns, bark because any plant that did not have them would not survive to pass on its genes. Consider antibiotic resistance. When humans use antibiotics, the goal is to kill all the bacteria, but any bacteria that survive will pass on their genes that confer resistance to the specific antibiotic. Certain strains of bacteria get “lucky” and develop resistance to multiple strains of antibiotics and become “superbugs”. Bacteria are not sentient and do not feel pain. Resistance to antibiotics and defensive adaptions are both controlled by genes. (Also, 70% of antibiotics are given to animals in factory farms. This makes antibiotics less effective for humans and increases the development of superbugs.)

If you don’t understand my logic and its implications, read The Selfish Gene by Richard Dawkins (or a summary). It’s an extremely important book for understanding the world (from at least one perspective).

“Animals are a good source of protein, I personally think that these days red meat, mammal meat, has a lot of health problems that could arise from it, such as cholesterol and bowl cancer, a focus on white meats like fish and fowl is a more logical source of protein. The thing with red meat is that those animals are much larger than fish or fowl and so more people can be fed from one soul.”

Animals are an okay source of protein. You are definitely right about red meat killing people. Deep leafy greens like kale, swiss chard, collard greens, spinach are more bioavailable as well as more nutrient dense. Animal products are also, to my knowledge, completely devoid of antioxidants and phytonutrients, which veggies, fruits, nuts, legumes and grains are packed with. They are also a much more efficient, less carbon-emitting form of protein. Finally, the very fact that you single out protein is telling. Humans only need about 10% of their calories from protein. The majority of plant foods have this or more, fruit being the only, delicious exception. For more information:

http://www.thediscerningbrute.com/2013/02/08/protein-obsessed/

“Death is not a bad thing, we just think it is, but treating animals inhumanely IS a bad thing and that has little to do with the act of eating animal flesh and more to do with cost cutting for profit, and other times for religious or cultural traditional preparation.”

I understand where you are coming from and actually had this thought in my mind for a good long while, thought I never really acted on it. Then I realized something: We live in a capitalistic society and are driven by human nature. Animal products are a commodity, thus the market demands the lowest possible price for them, and human nature does as well. What this means is suffering and cruelty on a massive scale, suffering and cruelty we pretend does not happen.

What I realized is that the act of eating animal flesh promotes the idea that it is OK to eat animals. Even if the animal is “cruelty-free” (which is Orwellian doublespeak btw, slitting an animal’s throat is never cruelty-free, never in her best interests, and never an act of compassion), grass-fed, local or organic. 99% of animal products are produced in an industrial setting. When consumers choose their hyphenated animal products, the message the majority receives is that it is simply a class difference, akin to poor people driving Fords while the rich drive BMW’s.

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Ray Butler (1,423)M (@trek79) 8 years, 4 months ago ago

@herbeater, Some animals have resemblance of sentience, but they are not sentient. A sentient being is a being that can over-ride instinctive and emotional reactions to situations and instead assess the situation, with acquired knowledge and understanding of the situation they can then find a more advantageous application of action that is often contrary to the impulsive base drives.

You say animals are here for their own purpose, but that suggests they have choice, choice is an aspect of sentience, animals predominantly behave according to instinctive and emotional reaction, with the exception of a small few animals that can display a rudimentary over-ride of lesser emotions and instincts.

Of course plants do not have a mind, but neither do animals, you say animals have their own purpose but plants do not? Plants did not decide to grow bark or thorns, but animals did not choose to grow horns or claws, advantageous mutations for both, they have them not because they needed protection but because it did protect them.

The fact is, the same drive to exist is in both, that one is further along the evolutionary scale and so has greater rights? That sounds familiar.

Animals are closer related to plants than they are to us, because sentience, conceptual awareness, is as different as the distinction between energy and matter, the difference between matter and life. Plants and animals both fall under the “Life” category, humans fall under the “conceptually aware/sentient” category.

You call yourself a rationalist, and I agree with a lot of points you make about diet and then I admit I am not that knowledgeable about diet to agree with the rest, but you are granting rights to other life forms in a biased manner, that is not rational.

I single out protein because protein is the primary fuel for brain health and development, that and fatty acids, both abundant in animal meat. Eating meat is directly responsible for us becoming sentient beings, that is not so easily dismissed.

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Ray Butler (1,423)M (@trek79) 8 years, 4 months ago ago

@herbeater, The points about pain, that animals have a more developed nervous system, I can’t deny that, but suffering is never due to pain, pain is just a warning mechanism that a person or animal is in danger or being harmed, suffering comes from fear, pain triggers fear.

Animals experience fear but they do not have a concept of time, they have the self-preservation instinct, but that is not to be confused with them understanding they are about to die. These things are unique to us. We suffer on a level far greater than animals do because we have concepts of time and our own mortality, inspiring fear on a phenomenal level, and as I said; fear is suffering, not pain.

Do not presume to assign the human level of suffering to a non-sentient being, that is not rational.

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