On Feminism and the Like

TJ (@Justus) 8 years ago

As I was taking a state test today, there were two stories that irked me a bit. The first was about a woman who owned a salon and became a leading army pilot during WWII who created a task force of women to do non-combative aviation tasks. She did this in a time when women didn’t do that sort of thing and yadah yadah yadah. Admirable, but very focused on the fact that she was a woman doing all of this. The other was about how gender-specific clothes weren’t a thing and then they were and then they weren’t again because women wanted to rebel rebel against the fact that they were in the first place, and it was kind of ridiculous.

Anyway, there have been a few things bugging me since I read those two stories, the latter of them being the one really angering me. I understand that women used to be oppressed, as well as a large number of minorities, but this is the 21st century. People pretty much everywhere accept the fact that women, people of different ethnic origins, and now people with different sexual orientations can get any job they desire. THERE IS NO NEED TO SHARE THIS TO THE WORLD. An individual is not based on what they are anymore, but how they perform, think, etc.

We get that you’re a woman. We get that you can be a surgeon, or a race car driver, or in the army, or whatever. We get that you’re black and successful. It’s admirable that you didn’t have anything growing up and that now you’re well-off. Have a slice of humble pie! Like, honestly. Equality is a thing now. People know and understand this, well, other than the racist, homophobic, “traditional” people. But bigots will be bigots no matter how much you tell them you’re equal.

One thing that really bugs me is when girls are like, “I’m weak and can’t do [insert laborious task here] Will you do it for me?” and then turn around saying they’re just as capable as anyone to do anything. If you tell me you’re weak, I’ll treat you like that. If you tell me you’re capable, I’ll expect you to do whatever to get what you desire. This is true for whoever plays the, “I’m ______ so I can’t _______” Or, “That’s offensive because my ancient ancestors faced that struggle,” cards.

Times have changed. If you want to be treated equally, act as an equal, and treat everyone equally. Stop encouraging prejudice.

December 6, 2013 at 3:06 pm
JonH (1,139)C (@IJesusChrist) 8 years ago ago

@flynnstone, “Women get into discussions just as much as guys. I think the rules and style of debate is sometimes different though.”

This is exactly what people need to hear. I don’t think you’re doing yourself or women a favor by ignoring the subject because its run by guys, that kind of perpetuates the problem. Then its just us dudes having, as you said, a pissing contest. Claiming one person is right over the other without having any perspective from the subject we’re actually talking about.

If a bunch of women were arguing about how guys always watch sports and stuff, I think I would say something… not ignore it and let them come to some conclusion on their own.

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Sasa (0) (@sasa888) 8 years ago ago

Wow this is very odd timing because I have been thinking about this A LOT lately. Why is “feminism” even still a thing? I JUST wrote a blog post about this this morning.

http://intelligenthusiasm.wordpress.com/2013/12/10/the-older-i-get-the-more-feminist-i-become/

We are living in a time where women are running Fortune 500 companies, girls and women are excelling in math and engineering (previously “manly” subject), and women are being elected into political office. Why is feminism still even being labeled when it has such a negative connotation? “Feminism” has woven itself into daily life.

Like I said in my post, the word is so much less important than the actions or ethos. Women need to practice it instead of preaching it.

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Liptons (12) (@liptons) 8 years ago ago

@sasa888, Many people agree on the use of the term “feminist.” Like humanist should fall under the blanket term. Joss Whedon, for all the flack he gets, kind of sums it up perfectly: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDmzlKHuuoI

But where I differ is that feminism is already a blanket term. In America we have our waves of feminism, we’re at 3rd wave and it seems people are heavily stuck on the 2nd. The 2nd wave of feminism pushed for women to have the right to work and do anything a man can and not be under the presumptions of domesticity. The 3rd wave is harder to get a grasp on which is why it’s been getting so much shade, it’s less a function movement and far more cultural. Some countries are far from that point, they still need the term feminism because it IS absolutely a fight against a patriarchal institute. In Saudi Arabia there’s still no voting rights and parts of Taliban run Pakistan avoid educating women, feminist is absolutely still the term needed for their situation. 3rd wave, where America is at, is the point where feminists fight issues of the body, representation in culture and a slew of other institutionalized beliefs. Take for example the Bechdel Test, http://bechdeltest.com/ , that is a culture example of the female underrepresented in film. It’s along the lines of black representation in Hollywood. Working off that there’s a clear divide in feminism racially as well. There’s a clear sect between black and white feminism, each striving for different things. You sure as hell won’t see as many black women at slut walk because black feminism is pushing racial and societal oppression on top of gender imbalance, take a glance at the progression of black femininity and beauty and their’s is a much bigger fight.

So if you get rid of the term feminist/feminism for a word that doesn’t imply a set of “beliefs” or one that isn’t as militant (though I’d argue an ist is hardly militant), you have to make a huge portion of the populace accept the sudden change in name of an age old movement. It’s like if atheists got together and we’re like “You know I think we should be called atheians not atheists.” Instead let feminism run it’s course. Feck the naysayers of which there are already plenty, word association aside, and keep it up.

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Mike Wuest (510) (@mikeyw829) 8 years ago ago

@ijesuschrist, No I think it’s you who is not understanding. You’re using factual studies to back up your feminist opinions. I could use your same studies (and did) to back up my viewpoints. You’re distorting facts to fit into your opinion and mistaking that for objectivity.

If our society was based upon physical prowess, and there was a study showing that “In (insert tribe) women do all the hunting.” and then you concluded, “women can hunt just as well as men.” NO. Women can hunt, but it proves nothing that they can do it, on average, as well as men. Just because they’re able to hunt doesn’t mean they do it as well, on average. Those are just human laws and rules dictating who does what in that culture. It’s not based on any natural or inherent differences in the sexes. It only works because people are largely ideological and need to be told what to do based on laws, rather than the natural way things are.

Women can pick up rocks and throw them. That doesn’t mean that men, on average, can still pick up heavier objects and throw them farther than women, on average. Your “objective” study didn’t do anytihng to show if the society where women ruled was as efficient as a western society where men ruled. That society was still patriarchal based on the information they gave. It just said women ruled. But just like women can pick up objects and throw them, it doesn’t mean they can, on average, do it as well as men can with as much weight and distance.

Stop distorting facts to prove your opinions.

“It may be true, statistically, but biologically I find it bullshit. Neither of these activities have very little to do with anything in our past, but if you look closely, they have been engrained in us by corporations.”

You’re deluding yourself then. How many women can dunk a basketball? A few, but not many. If our society revolved completely around the ability to dunk a basketball, many many more men would be able to do it. And just because women couldn’t do it, you’d scream “DISCRIMINATION!!!!” and then call for an 8 foot tall hoop for women to dunk on so they could be “the same” as men. Fuck no, there’s no discrimination there. It simply has to do with the thing that that society found important, women couldn’t do as well.

How many women have the potential to be stronger than me or you? Literally, probably like 50 in the world, if even. Biology doesn’t just dictate physical differences. Also mental and psychological. Just like there are differences in how we look, there are differences in psychological ability.

Men are better at the things that our society, and you, values as useful. Sure, a growing number of women can do it, but it has nothing to do with discrimination at the fact that it hasn’t been that way in the past.

Since your values are dictated by society, and you only value masculine things as being useful, yet you want women to be equal, you make the claim that there aren’t differences in men and women. That’s a typical feminist viewpoint. You want homogenization and “sameness.” The things that women are better at than men, on average, are largely ignored or are made to seem unimportant.

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sian (109) (@siantastic) 8 years ago ago

Reading through this was exhausting. And that’s why I tend not to bother with threads like this. I was going to reply, left it a few hours and by that point it had already become exhausting. There was no discussion. Just ‘I’m right, I’m right’.

And honestly, I find talking about sexism repeatedly boring. Yes, if you want to carry on categorizing and splitting everyone into groups sexism exists, as does racism, homophobia, [insert any hateful view]. I would never label myself a feminist. To look at this world through only a feminine perspective would be a waste of opportunity. And I wouldn’t want to put my needs as a woman in front of the basic needs of everyone.

Men, women, we all have differences we need to celebrate. We need to stop thinking of ourselves as separate, and start working together, leaning on each others strengths, and focusing on our own. My idea of an equal society is something which I don’t think will be achieved world wide for a very long time.
Everyone’s too busy splitting themselves into groups.

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JonH (1,139)C (@IJesusChrist) 8 years ago ago

@mikeyw829, You went from being argumentative and discussing things (not physical actions) to hunting (completely physical). I don’t disagree the female and male anatomy is different. I don’t disagree that men wouldn’t be stronger. I wouldn’t necessarily agree men can hunt better than females, since hunting is a complex task.

As for dunking… “And just because women couldn’t do it, you’d scream “DISCRIMINATION!!!!”
Again you’re going for physical things, which is not why I initiated my reply to you. I wouldn’t scream discrimination for physical differences.

I’m saddened all you came up with was basketball and hunting.

“You make the claim that there aren’t differences in men and women.”

I never said that

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Tine (366) (@tine) 8 years ago ago

@flynnstone,

| I think the rules and style of debate is sometimes different though. |

i agree woman do as well, and i think you are right about this^. and if this is true, then the problem is not really the debate itself, or even how others debate it, it is how the individual responds to different styles,

which is why i ask, why pull away? us fellas definitely can be harsh, sadistic assholes, but underneath this ego is someone like you, with relevant points, hurts, and insights,

why not make part of your experience here how to learn to deal with guys, and differing approaches in general, and not be turned off by our douchebaggery and eagerness for verbal combat

know what you know, do not let anyone pull you into an emotional argument, and its easy to debate with guys, bc, woman control social settings much more then they think they do, but this cannot be used without being aware of it,

also, if girls pull away from debates about their gender on a public forum, then you leave the misperceptions and miscommunications of the men, debating woman, as truth

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Mike Wuest (510) (@mikeyw829) 8 years ago ago

@ijesuschrist, Because physical differences are just a more obvious form of mental/psychological differences. I was using obvious examples to make the more subtle stuff more obvious. It’s just as ridiculous psychologically as physically, it’s just not as obvious. I would give psychological examples, but you’d tell me I have no evidence for that. So I used physical, and you can extend that to the psychological.

And if men and women are equal, feminists certainly give men a lot of power by saying that they’ve been able to keep women down for so long. According to that logic, men must have some sort of advantage over women. And also accordingly, men must grant women more priveleges. If they were equal in our society, men wouldn’t have the ability to keep women down.

Our society is a man’s game. Women aren’t as good at playing a man’s game. None of the qualities that most women are better than men at are valued. In the past, they were often considered satanic or evil (hence the witch burnings). I’m not saying any of this is good, it’s just the way it is.

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Liptons (12) (@liptons) 8 years ago ago

@mikeyw829, That last paragraph basically explains why there are feminists. Not because what you say is necessarily true but because you genuinely believe it.

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JonH (1,139)C (@IJesusChrist) 8 years ago ago

@mikeyw829, You don’t have any evidence for psychological. I do. There have been studies. I gave one. If you want more I can give more.

“feminists certainly give men a lot of power by saying that they’ve been able to keep women down for so long”

Black people sure give white people a lot of power!

“According to that logic, men must have some sort of advantage over women.”
Yes, when it was simple to beat your wife for acting up, and the physical difference became the only real difference. Follows a cascade of a dozen centuries of this happening, and you arrive where we are now.

“Our society is a man’s game. Women aren’t as good at playing a man’s game.”

I’m really holding back from pulling my hair out man. How is society a man’s game? Define this. This is so fucking backwards dude. I can’t believe you can say shit like this as if its a fact.

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Mike Wuest (510) (@mikeyw829) 8 years ago ago

@liptons, I genuinely believe that men are better at doing things that men are naturally better at doing? That’s not a belief. That’s a fact.

The reason there are feminists is because feminists believe that the only qualities that are worthwhile are the ones that men are on average better at. Yet they call for equality, and instead of changing our view that only masculine qualities are worthwhile, they seek to make women fit into that mold instead of making feminine qualities more appreciated.

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Mike Wuest (510) (@mikeyw829) 8 years ago ago

@ijesuschrist, It is clearly a man’s game. That doesn’t make it right. I’m not saying it’s a good thing.

I’ve said it a billion times: THE THINGS WE VALUE IN OUR SOCIETY, MEN HAVE BEEN BETTER AT ON AVERAGE. THE THINGS THAT WOMEN ARE GOOD AT, ARE NOT APPRECIATED AND ARE NOT VALUED, EVEN BY FEMINIST WOMEN.

And to think that there are not psychological correlates to physical strength is ridiculous. To think that physicality and psychology are separate things is ridiculous. Our society is built upon brute force, effort, linear type thinking. Women tend to be weaker physical, but much more tender and “soft” and yielding. There are psychological correlates to that, and those characteristics, instead of being valued as necessary, are considered weak and unimportant.


@ijesuschrist
, It’s a man’s game because we value masculine qualities only. I’ve said this repeatedly. Men have more masculine qualities than women, hence they get by better in a world that values only masculine qualities. That’s why women have been marginalized, because they don’t fit into the game as well and the things they are good at are trivialized and made unimportant, even by women (and especially by feminists).

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JonH (1,139)C (@IJesusChrist) 8 years ago ago

@mikeyw829, How is it clearly a mans game?

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JonH (1,139)C (@IJesusChrist) 8 years ago ago

@mikeyw829, Can you give any facts to back up your opinions, Mikey?

Wouldn’t a gender that is more competitive, be better at a capitalistic system? Call me crazy. Sounds like a woman’s game to me.

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JonH (1,139)C (@IJesusChrist) 8 years ago ago

@mikeyw829, Lastly, do you not even consider that perhaps the reason women turn out to be ‘tender and “soft” and yielding’ is because there are men saying this very thing, hundreds of times, over and over, since birth, to females?

Do you not believe that “Women aren’t good at math” has an effect since basically every girl hears this upon entering the 2nd grade?

Would you throw the idea away that perhaps a thousand years of words with the general idea “Women are like this, men are like this” is the only actual tangible thing making it so?

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JonH (1,139)C (@IJesusChrist) 8 years ago ago

@mikeyw829, Would it be so far fetched that “Blacks are inferior” broad casted on every newspaper and media outlet for 200 years could actually make people believe it?

Would it be fucking insane that the two concepts are related at all?

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Mike Wuest (510) (@mikeyw829) 8 years ago ago

@ijesuschrist, Do women get paid for raising children? No. Is there any respect or accolades in doing so? Less and less. Is there any economic benefit for the things that women are naturally born to do? No. So those things are put on the back burner, and women have to act like men to make it.

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Liptons (12) (@liptons) 8 years ago ago

@mikeyw829, Nope not even close. There are feminists because women didn’t have the right to do much anything at one point. Now they have those rights because they fought for them. Then they fought for the right to leave the house and work. They earned those rights for themselves. Now they want equal pay, representation and many more. No more sex based discrimination based on stereotypes which is exactly what you’re assuming. Considering there are women running fortune 500 companies and becoming C.E.O.’s you’d think they wouldn’t have to deal with that shit anymore. But you’re here to prove them right apparently by saying apparently men have psychological qualities not fit for society. Despite statistics and no proof at all of this, you’re obstinate enough to say “Well I’m getting this from my own thoughts!” As if you are the end all be all to studies of feminism because… why again? You’re failing to acknowledge countless sociological reasons for why you might think women aren’t fit for certain positions. In fact the only part that makes sense is that women have less physical ability, which you use as your only basis. Well fortunately we don’t tell our doctors, teachers, presidents, to go out with a rock and hunt nor do we pick them from the NFL.

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JonH (1,139)C (@IJesusChrist) 8 years ago ago

@mikeyw829, “Do women get paid for raising children? No.”
Do men? No.

“Is there any respect or accolades in doing so? Less and less. ”

Perhaps this is may explain your vantage point. Raising a child is arguably more respectful than playing football.

“Is there any economic benefit for the things that women are naturally born to do? No.”

The one thing you chose to isolate is women are born to raise a child. Men can also raise children. They just can’t breast feed. You have left aside all the economic benefits such as thinking, inventing, and providing services.

Aside from playing sports, what is it that men are born naturally that comes with an economic advantage, that women don’t have, Mikey?

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Mike Wuest (510) (@mikeyw829) 8 years ago ago

@ijesuschrist, “Lastly, do you not even consider that perhaps the reason women turn out to be ‘tender and “soft” and yielding’ is because there are men saying this very thing, hundreds of times, over and over, since birth, to females?”

-Sure I consider this. It has it’s merits. Still doesn’t take away from the fact that there are also natural differences. How did the stereotypes get there in the first place? Why wasn’t it the other way around?

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Mike Wuest (510) (@mikeyw829) 8 years ago ago

@ijesuschrist, god damnit. Yeah men can raise children. I know they CAN do it. Just like women can play sports. Doesn’t mean they can do it as well, on average. And it doesn’t mean there aren’t natural inclinations. I mean it’s a fact men have more testosterone and women have more oxytocin just for these capabilities.

The qualities it takes to raise a child aren’t valued. Women are better, on average, at the types of activity that would fall under the category of child rearing ON AVERAGE (it doesn’t mean absolutely). Those qualities are things like empathy, receptivity, sensitivity, etc. None of that is valued because there’s no economic benefit. So feminists and women disown from those qualities because there’s no perceived benefit to them.

and the only reason you people are so appalled at what I’m saying is because you deem things like “child rearing” and other stuff women are naturally good at to be unimportant. So you should really be appalled at yourselves, not me. I’m saying those things are just as important, they just aren’t valued. See how much society dictates your opinions?

Why do you think our current society is so dehumanized and mechanical? Why do you think the family unit is breaking apart? Why do you think that people are so quick to adopt ideologies? Why do you think everyone has their heads down and is just working away in a linear path? Why do you think not many people ever look up to see the horizon? Why do you think that the vast majority of people lack any sort of creativity? Because all these qualities are not valued. And those are qualities that women are naturally better at. But since they are disowned, especially by feminists, we’re just becoming an even more male dominated society, where now the women are even men.

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Mike Wuest (510) (@mikeyw829) 8 years ago ago

@liptons, physical and psychological traits are not separate. It’s crazy to think otherwise. That’s all I’m gonna say. Thanks for your input.

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Liptons (12) (@liptons) 8 years ago ago

@mikeyw829, That’s like saying to be a computer engineer you have to be weak and scrawny cause they’re nerds and nerds are small. Or to be a lawyer you have to bench press 250lbs at least otherwise the other lawyers will laugh you out of court.

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Liptons (12) (@liptons) 8 years ago ago

@mikeyw829, And what about effeminate men or masculine women? What about transgender men and women? Can a woman that has become a man do male jobs or what about a man that becomes a woman and takes estrogen pills?

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Liptons (12) (@liptons) 8 years ago ago

Also a woman just became CEO of General Motors, aren’t cars and companies male things!? OH GOD MIKEY W. IT’S AN ECONOMIC CRISIS.

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