On Feminism and the Like

TJ (@Justus) 8 years ago

As I was taking a state test today, there were two stories that irked me a bit. The first was about a woman who owned a salon and became a leading army pilot during WWII who created a task force of women to do non-combative aviation tasks. She did this in a time when women didn’t do that sort of thing and yadah yadah yadah. Admirable, but very focused on the fact that she was a woman doing all of this. The other was about how gender-specific clothes weren’t a thing and then they were and then they weren’t again because women wanted to rebel rebel against the fact that they were in the first place, and it was kind of ridiculous.

Anyway, there have been a few things bugging me since I read those two stories, the latter of them being the one really angering me. I understand that women used to be oppressed, as well as a large number of minorities, but this is the 21st century. People pretty much everywhere accept the fact that women, people of different ethnic origins, and now people with different sexual orientations can get any job they desire. THERE IS NO NEED TO SHARE THIS TO THE WORLD. An individual is not based on what they are anymore, but how they perform, think, etc.

We get that you’re a woman. We get that you can be a surgeon, or a race car driver, or in the army, or whatever. We get that you’re black and successful. It’s admirable that you didn’t have anything growing up and that now you’re well-off. Have a slice of humble pie! Like, honestly. Equality is a thing now. People know and understand this, well, other than the racist, homophobic, “traditional” people. But bigots will be bigots no matter how much you tell them you’re equal.

One thing that really bugs me is when girls are like, “I’m weak and can’t do [insert laborious task here] Will you do it for me?” and then turn around saying they’re just as capable as anyone to do anything. If you tell me you’re weak, I’ll treat you like that. If you tell me you’re capable, I’ll expect you to do whatever to get what you desire. This is true for whoever plays the, “I’m ______ so I can’t _______” Or, “That’s offensive because my ancient ancestors faced that struggle,” cards.

Times have changed. If you want to be treated equally, act as an equal, and treat everyone equally. Stop encouraging prejudice.

December 6, 2013 at 3:06 pm
Mike (1) (@lighthouse) 8 years ago ago

@iamhedonism, great post.

And really… as if being a white male means you can’t have an opinion on feminism? Great tactic – if we can’t beat a rational argument, let’s just forbid anyone from the opposing side from arguing.

And that idea, in and of itself, summarizes the entire movement of feminism. It relies on group-shaming and its “taboo” nature to divert logical arguments. Because it has no defense against them.

Feminism is the new religion. An ideology based on pillars that exist only in fantasy, but aims to create real change in reality, based on these fictional pillars. In this way, it is evil to its very nature, and needs to be routed out and destroyed.

“Feminism” is not equality. Another great example of “logic”. How the hell could feminism be about equality when the very name focuses solely on one gender? Feminism is, pure and simple, just another entitlement mentality.

I say the subject is not taboo, and should be looked at with an objective eye. When looked at in this way, it fails, on all counts, every time, and there has never been an argument presented that would even hint at justifying its dogma.

To say that anyone arguing against feminism is sexist is to ignore the fact that the vast majority of women think exactly like @iamhedonism. Feminism is NOT women. Feminism is the bullshit being screamed by a small but incredibly vocal minority.

As evidenced by this site, more men defend feminism than women. Because most women understand that feminism is bullshit to its core, while most men are too scared to do anything but tiptoe around such a “taboo” topic.

And this is where the problem lies. A select group of “women” are behind a prejudiced ideology that the entire male gender is supposed to either agree with or ignore. And we do. For the most part.

Because of this, a tiny group of people actually have a say in real laws and issues that affect all of us, in reality.

Behind every feminist “argument” is an inconvenient truth rarely brought to the surface.

The objectification of women ignores Newton’s long forgotten law:

For every objectified woman, there is an equal and opposite sexually frustrated man who hasn’t been laid in 10 years.

The “glass ceiling”? On average, men work harder than women. On average, men get paid higher wages and get in more positions of authority.

On average, both men AND women prefer a male boss. On average, more men are in positions of authority.

As a side note, to say that men are more “privileged” is to ignore the fact that the vast majority of men do what they do for one main reason: to get laid. Making money and getting “privilege” is rarely the end goal. More often, it’s a means to an end. The end being, attract beautiful women, and have sex with them. THIS is why men go into the world to “make a name for themselves”.

Rape culture? Try just culture. Because the leading causes of rape are emasculated men and slut shaming. Feminism is just a trojan horse, to convince us to bicker amongst ourselves, while both genders get fucked in the ass by “the system” as a whole.

The amount of money being made off of feminism is absolutely massive. Do you realize that magazines like Cosmo make a FORTUNE off of it? Do you realize this means it’s actually in their advantage to continue promoting both inequality and its “solution”? In this way, they manufacture both the “problem” and the “solution”. And we pay them to do it.

The greatest inconvenient truth of all is that life has struggles, and no one is exempt. The whitest, richest man on planet earth has individual struggles that at least equal the ones we each face in our own lives. In all reality, he faces greater struggles, to fit his oversized capabilities.

Feminism is not even what we’re discussing here… it simply gives us a platform to show each other how little we know about the genders that make up the human race. Men and women don’t even understand themselves, not to mention the opposite gender.

Men and women are both being oppressed. But not by each other – by the “powers that be”. Ideologies, more often than not, focus our attention on a fictional “thing”, and take our attention away from reality.

To get what you want, focus on it intensely, and act according to your desire every second of the day. If you do this, you get what you want. If you do this, there is no glass ceiling.

Anything else is just an excuse.

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Mike Wuest (510) (@mikeyw829) 8 years ago ago

@liptons, “That’s like saying to be a computer engineer you have to be weak and scrawny cause they’re nerds and nerds are small. Or to be a lawyer you have to bench press 250lbs at least otherwise the other lawyers will laugh you out of court.”

-No it’s not like saying that at all. There are physical correlates to EVERYTHING psychological.

Also, did you notice how many times I used the word ON AVERAGE. Probably like 75 times. Do you know what that phrase means? I’m speaking generally here, not absolutely.

I never said women can’t be CEO’s. Just like men can be stay at home moms. I know it’s possible. And I have no idea who this CEO is, but I guarantee she acts like a dude, has probably no emotion or expression in her grey and ragged face, and wears a suit. Not someone I’d want to have sex with probably. So it’s a women who is acting like a masculine person, fitting into a masculine role. Never once said women couldn’t do it, it just doesn’t come as natural to them. Just like child rearing doesn’t come as natural to most men. Obviously there’s exceptions. Go back and re-read what I’ve said. Never once said any of the stuff you’re saying I said. You’re obviously not understanding my points.

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Flynnstone (813) (@flynnstone) 8 years ago ago

@ijesuschrist, @tine,
I agree with you both that it doesn’t help my/women’s situation by pulling out of threads we don’t think are productive, but that’s just my reaction–I don’t care as much on the internet.

I’d love to have productive discussion 100% of the time, but miscommunication is easy when you can’t read body language and listen to the tone of people’s words and people get offended. So I pick my battles.
Also this: “which is why i ask, why pull away? us fellas definitely can be harsh, sadistic assholes, but underneath this ego is someone like you, with relevant points, hurts, and insights,…why not make part of your experience here how to learn to deal with guys, and differing approaches in general, and not be turned off by our douchebaggery and eagerness for verbal combat”

I am not afraid to debate with guys, and I’m not intimidated to talk to you all. I actually quite enjoy it most of the time. I don’t like to be patronized. If I was sitting across from you and we were having this discussion, I would care more to explain myself and shut down the bullshit around us to actually have a productive discussion. As it stands though, a lot of times my reaction to the idiocy is to just let it go.

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Liptons (12) (@liptons) 8 years ago ago

@lighthouse, Wait so you admit that men are in more positions of power, live to get laid and that freeing women hurts men because a dude might not get laid for 10 years? And that’s women’s fault he hasn’t gotten laid? Where’s the statistic that men work harder than women? Do you honestly believe a rich white guy has an many issues as a poor black woman? Do you realize how much money is made off of the sexualization of women? Far more than feminism does I’ll tell you that much.

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JonH (1,139)C (@IJesusChrist) 8 years ago ago

@liptons, lol


@mikeyw829
, “And I have no idea who this CEO is, but I guarantee she acts like a dude, has probably no emotion or expression in her grey and ragged face,”

Wow man. I thought you were a cool guy, but you’ve lost all my respect.

Here is the entire point I am trying to make up in this thread, I would like you to read it.

A long time ago, people didn’t have strong of morals and ethics, and equality was a new idea. Empathy was also a budding emotion (empathy is proclaimed to be the newest emotion of the human mind).

Women, as they are smaller in figure, were taken as wives, and could be handled as property – if they acted up or anything, they were beaten or abused. Physical over powering made them property of the male. Since this was POSSIBLE, it became OK. A thousand years of this has made it a societal norm that men and women have different roles.

Men work hard (makes sense, they have more muscle mass), women take care of the man.

However, it became an idea that since men do hard work, and women do not, women like softer things and are ‘softer’ in personality. If you are told, from birth, that you like softer things because you are a female, odds are you will grow up to like softer things. We’ve seen it in a hundred scenarios.

Whites thought blacks were a completely separate race, given to them by god to use as property.
Asian cultures give their children spicey food, and the children grow up to think most american food is bland.
Women are told they are bad at math, and that society is a ‘man’s game’ and therefore believe it.
Men are brought up and told men like sports, sports are manly things, so they believe it.
People say you need to pre-boil water for spaghetti for gods sake and people believe it.

Mikey, is it not possible that you have grown up and been told that men do certain things and women do certain things, and that you have seen men and women do these certain things and thus came to the conclusion that these things are, generally, for men or for women, rather than the idea that perhaps all these other people were told the same thing you were, and therefore created a societal norm?

Could it not be possible that you were raised to believe women do certain tasks better than men, just as women have been raised to believe they are worse at tasks than men?

Do you really, honestly believe that evolution somehow selected men to be better at capitalism – a completely abstract idea that has no bearing in biology?

Are you really willing to say no, these aren’t possibilities?

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JonH (1,139)C (@IJesusChrist) 8 years ago ago

@liptons, Lighthouse in manimal’s aka.

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JonH (1,139)C (@IJesusChrist) 8 years ago ago
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Liptons (12) (@liptons) 8 years ago ago

@mikeyw829, http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-12-10/gm-said-to-choose-barra-as-first-female-ceo-of-automaker.html

Actually she’s pretty hot for a 51 year old. I’m understanding your points, they’re just not founded on reality. So if they’re better at child rearing then what? All gay couples have less of a chance of being good parents? And lesbian couples, well one of them better be good at working! Single moms just can’t work? Give me a fucking break man, you’re thinking in an endless loop of traditional values.


@lighthouse
@mikeyw829 Here’s an average, on average every President is a white man except one. A single one. No women and one black guy. No Hispanic or Asian party elects. Not even atheists for chrissake. It’s all part of an endless sociological trend that stems far past any living person’s generation. So tell me again how it isn’t historically institutionalized that white and male isn’t the end all be all of society.

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Liptons (12) (@liptons) 8 years ago ago

@ijesuschrist, God dammit Manimal. He’s the kind of troll I picture with like 5 monitors each on their latest troll endeavors, except the one thats always on porn.

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Mike Wuest (510) (@mikeyw829) 8 years ago ago

@ijesuschrist, Haha you’ve lost all respect for me now? A bit harsh don’t you think?

That’s a way oversimplified account. There are stereotypes, of course. There are also natural inclinations and dispositions.

Of course I’ve thought of the ideas you’re talking about. Could it not be possible that you were raised to think a certain subset of tasks (masculine oriented) were considered admirable, and you were raised to largely ignored another certain subset of tasks (feminine oriented)? And therefore you seek to fit feminine people into a masculine box.

“Do you really, honestly believe that evolution somehow selected men to be better at capitalism – a completely abstract idea that has no bearing in biology?”

-Uhh no. I believe that the current society, including capitalism, was created by and serves people with masculine strengths. Capitalism isn’t just something that’s been there. It was created by humans. Duh.

The difference between me and you is you are trying to fit everyone into society without changing the society itself. You’re trying to change the superstructure without questioning the integrity of the foundation. I’m saying that it’s the society that needs to change to accommodate and value a broader range of qualities. You’re just seeking to homogenize everyone into a depolarized sameness that doesn’t even exist in reality.


@liptons
, no you THINK you’re understanding. Big difference.

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Mike (1) (@lighthouse) 8 years ago ago

Feminism’s only argument: ad hominem

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JonH (1,139)C (@IJesusChrist) 8 years ago ago

@mikeyw829, So. Do you believe, that given a completely clean slate, wiped clean from all societal influences, a female would grow up to want to cook, take care of her children, like fluffy things, and rarely want to argue or discuss things?

While given a completely clean slate, a male would grow up aggressive, argumentative, wanting to watch sports, wanting to wear suits and be ‘man-like’?

I don’t. If you you do, I don’t think you understand evolution, or biology.

Capitalism was created by humans, you are correct, but capitalism is an abstract concept. It is not a biological thing, it isn’t even a tangible thing. If you can explain exactly how a man is better suited for capitalism over a female, that would be great. (Facts are REALLY welcome, by the way, rather than what you believe to be true).

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Mike Wuest (510) (@mikeyw829) 8 years ago ago

@ijesuschrist, All your shit is not any more facts than mine is. Just because you’re backing yourself with an ideology doesn’t make what you say fact. If you can explain yourself, there’s nothing wrong with opinion. Most stuff people consider fact isn’t even fact anyways. Just the reigning ideology of the times.

No, I don’t believe it’s that simple. I do believe that men and women would act differently, though. That’s obvious. They would do different things, take on different roles that accommodate their biology. They wouldn’t act the same. If they acted the same, there would only be one sex. There are two sexes, yin and yang, male and female, masculine and feminine, possessing different qualities that complement each other, that attract to one another. They ARE NOT the same and they would not act the same and do the same things. If they were the same, there’d be no attraction.

And abstract “matrices” can favor a certain group of people over another type of people. The fact that humans are biological and capitalism is an abstract system has nothing to do with that.

Our whole society is a masculine construct. In order for women to fit into they have to take on a masculine role, unless the society as a whole changes. That leads to a male and female sameness, as we are seeing nowadays, and even more of a strengthening of the masculine aspect as now even women are embodying it. Homogenization is the bane of our existence. It’s that simple.

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Steven (40) (@steven) 8 years ago ago

I don`t really get what the hell you guys are arguing about. You both base your viewpoint on some unprovable supposition about the nature of different sexes and how they relate to capitalism and our current society. The fact is that it is impossible for us to assert whether either one of your assertions (we have innate characteristics that belong to one of the sexes or we were only raised to believe that we do) is definitely true. However, I fail to see how this relates to the issue at hand. The core of the matter is under what circumstances is it fair to view a person simply as belonging to a specific group, rather than evaluating their merits outside of societies pre-conceived ideas about members of that group. I think neither view allows support for such behavior.

For the record, I DO believe that in generally women tend to be more akin to different things than men, I just don’t think this believe is ever relevant out there in the real world. For this reason I think we shouldn’t strive for equality in the numbers (I think more women will WANT to stay at home and take care of the children than men, and I don`t think there is anything wrong with this), but I think we should strive for equal opportunity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male%E2%80%93female_income_disparity_in_the_United_States

Wikipedia has a nice article about this, and I honestly believed it was common knowledge that women make less than men AFTER CONTROLLING for ALL DIFFERENCES EXCEPT SEX. So a woman has the same experience as a man, the same educational background and is working the same hours but still receives a lower paycheck. I fail to grasp how you can defend this

Not something that is completely unrelated: men working in other jobs. The fact that some guys are dying in coal mines in Chille (whereas women are not) has absolutely no relevance to a income for a male or female lawyer in the U.S.. Just because some men are having it rough does not mean YOU as a man are entitled to a benefit.


@IJesusChrist
, what do you think the implications of biology and evolution are for sex difference? I think there are very little species on earth that do NOT have distinctly different roles for males and females.

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Steven (40) (@steven) 8 years ago ago

@lighthouse, oh the irony

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JonH (1,139)C (@IJesusChrist) 8 years ago ago

@mikeyw829, Tah dah, psychology studies abound about this type of thing. So my opinion can become fact.

If your opinion was fact, there would be no cultures where women ruled, where women did the work, and where men babysat. But there are, and there have been.


@steven
, “I think there are very little species on earth that do NOT have distinctly different roles for males and females.”

Aside from bearing children, breast feeding, sex, and attracting mates, there is very little species that do have different ‘roles’ except in higher mammals.

I don’t disagree women and men are different. Its just bogus to say that cooking is for women and sports are for men. That is a blatant disregard for how evolution works.

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JonH (1,139)C (@IJesusChrist) 8 years ago ago

@mikeyw829, “In order for women to fit into they have to take on a masculine role, unless the society as a whole changes.”

This is just so fucking stupid. You realize if this is true, it is because of people with your perspective, and your perspective ONLY that causes such things?

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Ellie (1,363)M (@tangledupinplaid21) 7 years, 12 months ago ago

@flynnstone, aye girl, sorry I didn’t notice ya there :)

@everyone else, calm down guys it’s just the internet.

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Tine (366) (@tine) 7 years, 12 months ago ago

@flynnstone,

| . If I was sitting across from you and we were having this discussion, I would care more to explain myself and shut down the bullshit around us to actually have a productive discussion. |

consider this more fully, think about cause//effect, think about impact variables,

a discussion on the internet is harder than in person, agreed, but i do not agree that this then means internet conversations are without value, i see it as a challenge to learn to communicate in a new way, with less data about who you are speaking to, i see it as a way for your opinion to reach more than just your physical location, and your opinion, perspective, can then interact with vastly different ones,

^this is great on the psyche and empathy for both parties^

and know this truth, even though you dont place a lot of value on these internet conversations, a lot of people do, a lotta, you can see it in their emotions when they respond, so, regardless of your sorta disdain for internet talks, internet talks are significant,

so i ask again, what real excuse is there? ppl will value your opinion and engage you, like jesus (lol) and i, your opinion reaches beyond your physical location, you are a female and your perspective on a female thread would be valued,

especially if you know how to stop the rukus
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^we could use it^ =)

aannnnnnddd, if people want to dicks and try to degrade you bc of some misperceived power struggle of ‘who is the smartest’, <— see it for what it is and dont let it bother you

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Tine (366) (@tine) 7 years, 12 months ago ago

@ijesuschrist,

| Do you believe, that given a completely clean slate, wiped clean from all societal influences, a female would grow up to want to cook, take care of her children, like fluffy things, and rarely want to argue or discuss things? |

i consider it from a logical placement within society context. physical attribute contrasts, which parent feeds the child, simple concepts based on a cause//effect within reality based on need/logic

i can see this reflected in the advancing roles within society woman have continued to accumulate, as society as become more and more accommodating throughout history, the need for a woman to stay home, a man to work, has shifted,

and i dont think it is any more complex than that. it is humanity and its cause//effect nature with the current reality, and the mindset on woman has just been the social mental impact of their role within society,

something we are seeing shift dramatically even today

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Tine (366) (@tine) 7 years, 12 months ago ago

@ijesuschrist,

nah man, dont hurt someone because they have hurt you, this is not a reason but an excuse, point out what you think he did but dont resort to lashing back

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Tine (366) (@tine) 7 years, 12 months ago ago

@lighthouse,

manimal?

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Tine (366) (@tine) 7 years, 12 months ago ago

@lighthouse,

nice man, good move

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Mike Wuest (510) (@mikeyw829) 7 years, 12 months ago ago

@ijesuschrist, ok you’re right

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