Perception of Chaos -> Order

Anonymous (@) 10 years, 1 month ago

I was rather high the other day and went pretty deep in a pre-dug out rabbit hole.

And what I saw was rather hard to grasp.

But I shall share it with you.

What I saw was that there is a possibility that there is actually no order what so ever in the universe, that all things are completely random and chaotic, and that basically all reality is “noise”. Our brains manage to make order from nothing – that is images and ideas from noise. Without our consciousness, our perceptions of meaning and form, there exists literally a cloud of noise, unfiltered, meaningless noise.

This stems from a few ideas and merges them in a rather extreme way;
•”Meaning” is completely human – there can be no “meaning” to life, it simply is.
•”Life” has no definition – it is an arbitrary boundary that we decide to draw between viruses and bacteria.
•The human mind is actually only a pattern creator not a pattern recognizer.**

** Hence you can make images out of the noise of a blank TV screen.

This all culminated from me viewing my TV stand and wondering what defines a TV stand. Is it a TV stand, or is it simply a wood box? Is it simply wood placed together in a certain fashion to create something I label as a box? What is wood, it is simply cells aligned with cellulose and membranes. What is membranes, etc? Eventually everything simply becomes density of matter and energy, and that is it. The rest is an arbitrary construction of the mind – something that seems to benefit “life” but life, again can be deconstructed to simply entropy and densities.

Eventually it becomes very clear that there is nothing outside of our perception – we create this entire reality by constructing our own arbitrary patterns, ones that did not exist without conscious perception.

My mind was blown.

August 27, 2012 at 7:10 pm
R.V. Star (151) (@rickvonstar) 10 years, 1 month ago ago

@ijesuschrist, I know exactly what you mean, hence the importance of meditation to quiet the mind of useless pattern making

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Anonymous (2,833) (@) 10 years, 1 month ago ago

@rickvonstar, If I didn’t make patterns I wouldn’t be able to distinguish food from wood!

Oh you said useless. I see :)

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R.V. Star (151) (@rickvonstar) 10 years, 1 month ago ago

@ijesuschrist, Lol man this is why sometimes I post about certain things not existing, and I feel like some people probably think I’m crazy.

here’s a good example that I randomly thought of, Responsibility.

Commonly this is very accepted thing that most people think makes society function better.

But where is responsibility? can you see it? put your hands on it? No not really, responsibility is a conception of the mind that is imposed on a reality where no such thing like that exists

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R.V. Star (151) (@rickvonstar) 10 years, 1 month ago ago

in other words, to say that one person has an obligation to a different person is something that we have made up using the mind, to make survival easier for everyone at large. But responsibility isnt a thing in itself as compared to what you can experience, like a tree

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R.V. Star (151) (@rickvonstar) 10 years, 1 month ago ago

@ijesuschrist, and furthermore, what you may call tree is actually dependent on a lot of other things for its existence, without which there would be no tree. Firstly there is the universe and then there is this galaxy and solar system and earth and a ground with soil for the tree to grow in, and then what is called a tree is really just a conglomeration of cells that seems to work almost by magic to sustain itself, and then cells are really just made up of molecules an atoms which are then made up of even more and varying kinds of energy.

But it’s all one energy.

Mind blowing that a single kind of energy can multimillionaire itself into the universe.

Nothing makes any sense!

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Cody (472) (@versai) 10 years, 1 month ago ago

Nice insights, this is the way I view reality these days. In fact, I stubbed my toe on my wooden desk today, and instead of cursing the desk I found myself damning “Matter! Density!” then smoked a bowl and passed out.

I was playing Spore yesterday and I have a lot more appreciation for my dna line that has evolved and survived the test of time. I don’t know why we’re farther down this consciousness path than anything else, we’re still just a culmination of cells and matter. All of our meaning and significance is derived from us. Without our strict patterns in symbolism and language, we would have no way of communicating or recalling our knowledge. We’d have no way to even conceive these metaphysical topics.

So what makes sentience? Expert pattern creation? The only reason I relate more to another human than a wolf is the predictability in how they behave and patterns to follow. I think human brain is the ultimate sponge, it can become a modern-day human pattern making machine; or raised by wolves at birth for a totally primitive, instinctual consciousness. This is probably more of a nature vs nurture debate, though.

I’ve wondered too though how these man-derived patterns stand in reality. Back to the density/matter example, our formula for gravity works out pretty nice in our metric system, but I don’t think it gives us a definitive grasp on the physics of gravity. We still don’t understand how it exactly works with mass to create density.

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R.V. Star (151) (@rickvonstar) 10 years, 1 month ago ago

@versai, I’m on some kind of perpetual mind trip because of this kind of thing….

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Cody (472) (@versai) 10 years, 1 month ago ago

@rickvonstar, Agreed, I like how you said “But it’s all one energy. Mind blowing that a single kind of energy can multimillionaire itself into the universe.”

It’s mind-boggling enough as it is, but I feel like my DMT trips are the only moments I really ‘get it’. And every time the feeling is the same, that I’m perceiving the source energy dancing all around everywhere, making up every thing. On some of the deepest break-through’s are when I felt merged with it completely, swimming among the cosmic energy, or that it was swimming within me. It’s hard to deny a spiritual meaning behind the energy that’s behind the matter.

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R.V. Star (151) (@rickvonstar) 10 years, 1 month ago ago

@versai, I’ve had similar experiences, but I’ve never done DMT. I literally felt like I had been extended into the things that were around me, but also that they were extended into me

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Daniel (316) (@qwuakeup) 10 years, 1 month ago ago

Wow interesting points can you write more on this? I’ve almost got it

So everything that is happening is just simply random movements of energy/matter, and it is only ‘significant’ or has a ‘reason’ to exist only from our perception.

Could you say these chaotic happenings are just possibilities (Potentials/building blocks) for our consciousness to use and grab onto in order to have an experience?

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Anonymous (2,833) (@) 10 years, 1 month ago ago

@qwuakeup, Perfectly understood you have it.

The only thing that ‘exists’ is matter and energy. There are density changes in each, and the farthest I would go is entropy also exists, which is just a flux of densities, really.

Beyond that – everything we perceive is simply a creation, an image, an idea fabricated by neurons. Without our consciousness, all that simply exists is little particles of matter carrying energy, randomly, chaotically, following some basicaly physical principles. A molecule is just a specific density of atoms with a certain amount of energy – nothing more. All else is constructs of the imagination, used in order to create an experience – Why?

To ask why would imply there is meaning, which also seems to be a construct of our consciousness. So really – all there is, just … is.

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Anonymous (2,833) (@) 10 years, 1 month ago ago

@versai, Then you bring in DMT and it’s like a totally different story – then meaning and reality are just… nothing in comparison to the spiritual . It makes the universe seem like nothing.

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Daniel (316) (@qwuakeup) 10 years, 1 month ago ago

@ijesuschrist, Wow very interesting. Could you then just say all there is is just “Energy”. And matter could even be seen as a perception only from our point of view? Like for example if you were of some other density, then what “matter” is to you is different to something which has a different density?

I like your ending that everything just IS. That’s so true, and it’s hard to grasp that something just is without trying to force reason behind it…. but then again that’s just the human thing to do.

I have a sub theory of this then if all there is just is, then there must only be right now and nothing except right now. There is nothing except right now, and the past doesn’t exist at all and it can’t apply to anything, because the “experience” you had in the past was the experience you had in that particular moment in time, which was your consciousness putting together the chaos which was there at the time, and I’m sure its the same chaos now, so everything is just a different perspective of right now.

I can go deeper… everything that is in your current experience, for example right now it can be your computer screen/laptop screen, the room your in, the people in it etc is the only thing that actually exists. Nothing else is actually existing (out there), there is only you who is putting together the chaos, and there is chaos everywhere and everyone is putting together their own experience from the same chaos.
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So If a tree falls in a forrest and no one hears it fall does it make a sound?

Well the tree doesn’t exist in the first place, because there is no consciousness to rearrange the chaos into a perception of a tree, so the question doesn’t even make sense any more.

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R.V. Star (151) (@rickvonstar) 10 years, 1 month ago ago

@qwuakeup, if a tree falls and there is no one to see it then it doesn’t make a sound because there is no one with an ear to hear it, but it certainly makes vibrations through the air (sound).

hah

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R.V. Star (151) (@rickvonstar) 10 years, 1 month ago ago

@qwuakeup, about your sub theory, I get the feeling a lot of times that once I’ve done something it’s almost like I never did it. Also, I’m sitting here typing and there is no way for me to tell whether I’ve been sitting here for five minutes of five million minutes because it all feels like now. This might as well be the first and last moment of my life but it might as well also be eternity

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Deepak (37) (@deepak87) 10 years, 1 month ago ago

We can know through our subjective existence. Its like we are in a perception bubble, and the entire of reality exists in our perception. I have no idea if other people even exist in the same way as I do. As some thinkers have commented, we could be the only conscious being alive in a simulation environment. I read somewhere that the authority that priests/clergy had in ancient times at Europe is replaced today by scientific literature and dogma (for the rational populace). We need to investigate the raw reality for ourselves.

I used to be confused about questions like: Is everything one or separate? Is the universe ultimately in order, chaos OR perfectly balanced between the two? Am I everything or am I nothing?

As I thought about these questions and saw some videos about it (by scott kiloby), I can see that they are just concepts or kinds of mental images. If I look from the point of view of finding separation: I find it by harnessing by critical thinking and divisive thinking faculties. If I try to see how things are interconnected: I can see it everywhere and get the feeling that everything is one. If I am looking for chaos intensely, I can see it everywhere. If I am looking for order, then everything seems to look ordered. Its like all of these are true and they are dependent on view points.

Its like our real self/truth is completely transcendent and beyond all viewpoints.
I would love to hear other opinions.

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Anonymous (2,833) (@) 10 years, 1 month ago ago

A good question is
If an atom [tree] exists and there is no consciousness to perceive it, does it exist

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Ellie (1,363)M (@tangledupinplaid21) 10 years, 1 month ago ago

Democritus was way ahead of you, and much more concise ;)

“Nothing exists except
atoms and empty space;
everything else is opinion.”

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Ellie (1,363)M (@tangledupinplaid21) 10 years, 1 month ago ago

@ijesuschrist, no, it does not exist, because the concept of “existence” is just that… a concept. A term, a word, a symbol that us humans invented. Without humans, “existence” ceases because language and concepts cease(allegedly).

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Ellie (1,363)M (@tangledupinplaid21) 10 years, 1 month ago ago

@versai, this is a bit of a tired point around here at this point but who’s to say that we are farther along in the consciousness line? What if we are actually less conscious than a wolf, because we have these chatter boxes going in our heads at any given moment of the day?(ego, inner-narrator). Perhaps a wolf is the most conscious of all because it simply is. It’s aware and it’s instincts are impeccable like ours might be if we didn’t have all of this excess chatter going on. Also who’s to say we could not conceive these metaphysical topics without language? I think we’d be much better suited for them without it. No concepts or arguments or associations about topics to get hung up on. No surplus of books and scholarly articles written on the subject by opposing physicists. Just direct experience; the best teacher.

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Anonymous (2,833) (@) 10 years, 1 month ago ago

@tangledupinplaid21, yeah he wishes.

I planted the seed of doubt.

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