Weigh it up, write a list of pros and cons, even post it on here, I challenge you. Just in bulletpoint form (no pun intended) instead of rattling off statistics, simply write what you gain and the drawbacks from having guns so accessable and common in society. Then once you do write them here, we can go through them point by point and see if we can find some objective reasoning.
The end of self-defense actually escalates violence in general, in my opinion.
There is tribe x and tribe z.
Tribe x learns that tribe z has started throwing rocks at its villagers, thus harming them.
Tribe x now must self-defend, and creates a sharp rock, or a knife and fashions it on a long stick to poke and cut members of tribe z.
Tribe z now feels threatened, and must self-defend. So, they once again must make a new weapon to overcome the last.
The atomic race was a great example of this. The Americans were so nervous of the Germans discovering the atomic bomb before they did, that ‘in self-defense’ they felt it necessary to research this with the utmost vigor. Result? America drops two bombs on Japan. (What started as self-defense became an attacking weapon).
Guns are just necessary for defense because others have guns to use as attacking weapons.
Now the question is: is it too naïve to assume that the playing field will ever be level? Will our society ever come to grips with trusting our fellow man enough to allow there to be a level playing field? Without the knowledge of ‘if someone breaks in, I have enough arms to destroy him’? Because as long as we have the insecurity, the arms will always be necessary, and we will always be chasing the next best tool for ‘self-defense’.
@danfontaine, My dad just doesn’t like being played for a sucker and having people walk all over him, he has earned things the hard way in life and he just applies the idea that others should do the same rather than sponge off him.
A bear is a deadly weapon, you don’t leave one laying around for your kids to play with.
@manimal, I can’t argue with the protection against assault/rape/robbery, especially if you have a gun and they don’t, but if they do you will end up both shooting, that sounds fun. How about people use common sense and try to avoid situations where they may be assaulted/raped or robbed?
With criminals, don’t you think there are more effective technologies for dealing with them, like CCTV in public places?
As for oppressive police, where I live police have become significantly less edgy now that we have tighter gun laws, the media loves to jump all over cops who abuse their position, I don’t know what the situation is like where you are.
If we have so many lethal household items laying around, what do we need guns for? (except for hunting and fun)
@danfontaine, To quote myself, paraphrased: Everything has a purpose, we just adapt those purposes to suit our purposes. We not only need to find the optimal advantage from things but we have to balance that with the most tolerable disadvantages that may come with them. As individuals we will likely never attain complete understanding and by association absolute objective reasoning but we do have power over our intentions to find that balance^ and in doing our best in this focus, according to what most makes sense to us at any given time or situation, we have success even in failure. No condemnation of the person who applies this spirit of deed can be justified, regardless of how one may fall short of realizing that goal.
@trek79, I was almost grasping what you just said, but shit man that’s a vortex of information that doesn’t point at anything. I think you tend to think yourself into a black hole.
Or maybe I’m just too stupid to comprehend what you’re saying?
Thoughts, thoughts, thoughts. More thoughts.
Good exercise but let’s be careful.
@danfontaine, I thought it was self explainatory. The thing is, you don’t nessecarily choose what has the greatest advantage, sometimes that advantage comes with intolerable disadvantages, so you have to compromise and find an advantage that carries with it a disadvantage that is more acceptable, or even no disadvantage to it at all.
But as people who have a number of inadequacies when trying to find this, chances are we will not always get things right, but as long as we do our best in our judgement of what makes most sense, etc etc.
@danfontaine, Of course, human emotion is something all our thinking must take into account, it is such a dominant factor of our existence and I think it is that people are leading on both sides of this arguement with emotion. The compromise is to crack down on the pain that is being caused while still permitting people to have an opportunity to indulge this dyed in the wool passion they have.
I mean; school shootings is an intolerable disadvantage, maybe the more tolerable disadvantage here is to add certain precautions, as I said above, to make sure people have the suitable wisdom in their ownership and the appropriate facilities and urgency for all seriousness related to that ownership.
I like what Austin Powers says “Now we have freedom and responsibility, it’s a very groovy time baby”
@trek79, What you call dyed in the wool I call unconscious. Programming. I love what this guy just said @s7221919, “Everyone thinks they are an action hero.”
That Austin Powers quote is indeed radical – thanks for sharing. Think of how life would be if that were actually the case. This topic would not be important at all.
@trek79, I strive to be less violent and angry, but I do want to own a gun someday, as well as a short range weapon of some sort, so that I may defend myself from predators of the human variety. You cannot defend yourself or your family and friends with sticks and stones from someone wielding a gun or other deadly weapon. I feel having a gun is both a preemptive measure against truly bad people, and it also reduces dependency on the local police force or someone else in general to save you when you’re in a jam. An armed person stands more of a chance to prevent themselves being killed/raped/mugged whatever, and it’s too late after the fact. That’s why I (sadly) feel that arms are necessary.
As for all of the would-be killers/muggers/rapists, they should have thought about the consequences of trying to make someone their prey.
It is far better to be a murder victim then a murderer. You can kid yourself all you want but if you kill someone just because they were trespassing, when you could have just called the police or scared them away somehow, you may get away with it legally. But you murdered them and you will suffer for it. In this life and the next. If you could have done something to prevent the death and instead choose to kill you have murdered. Also who says your life is worth more then theirs? If you are also protecting someone else’s life especially a child maybe. The law of the universe is above all laws of man.
@s7221919, Im not saying that I would necessarily kill someone because because they were threatening me but if it were my family or friends life over some villainous guys then I wouldnt hesitate. That is what seems right to me and maybe that is the law of his universe to get put down while doing such a terrible act.
@theskafish, Yeah, I would like to own one too, likely just for range shooting I’d own a pistol that I’d keep on grounds there. I wouldn’t mind going piggin with a rifle some day, wild boars are an introduced pest in Australia and they destroy natural habitats and are a real danger to humans and wildlife.
I think that generally criminals are cowards who avoid confrontation, if they do have guns or are in some kind of home invasion where they encounter the occupants in an armed robbery situation, generally they would not want to kill anyone because that is a whole new level of crime that they do not want to get caught up in. The main reason they would kill is if they feel forced into it, like say if you have a gun, that may do the trick.
I don’t like the idea of taking on bad guys if they have guns, it is too risky and chances are they will take what they want and leave. A sign out the front that says “Tresspassers will be shot” or “Member of the NRA” serves as a greater deterant than waiting silently with a gun inside. (it makes me think of an old man on a rocking chair on the porch, nursing a shotty)
Rape situations are a tough one, people are better to avoid travelling alone or in areas where such opportunities can be exploited. There was a big news story here about how a woman went back to a hotel room with a bunch of footballers and ended up being raped, ideally a woman should be able to do what she wants without such fears, but because the world is not quite that ideal yet, you do need to use a bit of sense and avoid situations that you are not sure you can handle.
Of course there is the extreme case of some deranged lunatic who only intends the most evil of crimes with zero consideration for repercussions, under those circumstances I agree a gun is completely warrented, but what are the odds? I suppose as they say “It is better to have a gun and not need it than to not have one when you do need it” but I am not too sure what it is like in the States, isn’t it a taboo to carry a gun around in public, maybe not so much a small purse concealed one but especially out in the open, that would make people nervous.
At home you would need them on hand in a moments notice yet still need to secure them properly around kids, that is a fine line.
@trek79, Yeah but criminal minds on criminal drugs will not hesitate to do anything if they think they can benefit from it. And yeah those pigs could do some damage and they definitely root up your hay meadows, but I wouldnt go hunt them. Maybe trap and relocate to this guy I dont likes house. That would be fun..
@ancientmystic, The United States didn’t drop the atomic bombs on Japan for no reason. Remember that the US was still fighting an extremely long and bloody campaign in the Pacific. The Japanese literally would have fought until there wasn’t anyone left, as was commanded by their emperor at the time. Dropping the atom bombs on Japan took about as many lives as it saved. It was a shitty decision, no one liked it, but it pretty much had to be done. Would you have preferred an even more drawn out campaign? @s7221919, You really can’t be serious. You expect people to believe that if they kill to defend themselves or their family that, they are going to ‘suffer for it in this life and the next’? That implies you know 100% reincarnation is real and that you don’t just, you know, rot in the ground when you die. There is absolutely nothing wrong with killing in self defense or for anothers defense.
It seriously blows my mind that there are people out there who would just lie down like a bitch and get killed, because they are worried about some perceived notion of right and wrong that may or may not exist. I highly doubt karma is real, because objectively speaking, nothing is right or wrong. You only perceive killing for self defense wrong because you make it so, just like how I think it is right because I make it so. Being an ‘action hero’ has nothing to do with it, whatsoever. It has to do with a simple survival instinct, them or me. We can talk about the philosophy of death all day long, but in the end, all we know for sure is that we get this one life to enjoy, and when it’s done, you rot in the ground. If some dumbass criminal wants to go and try to hurt me or kill me or someone I love for whatever reason, they are making the choice to do that. And I am making mine to potentially end their life, and I think most of the world would agree with me.
@drakonerythros, No I simply stated that killing for simply your own safety is not justifiable in my personal philosophy. Maybe you missed it but in my post I stated that I agree lethal force is acceptable if it will definitely preserve more lives. All souls are equal just some have had a difficult path that has corrupted their morals. Just because someone has had a bad life doesn’t mean their soul is worth less. And if it is somehow a choice between the lives of someone who is an evil doer and someone who is good natured, it would make sense to preserve the life of a good person. You do not have to share my philosophy, but I hope that if you were forced to take a life to defend yourself, that you would dedicate the rest of your life to making sure you were worth it.
You may disagree with my personal philosophy, but let me ask you this. If everyone in the world believed that their life is worth no more then the next, why would you need a gun?
@s7221919, If it were up to me, my friend, no one would ever have the need for a gun. But that’s not the world we live in. When there is no longer a need for guns, I will gladly lay down mine. But until that day, I want the option to defend myself and my loved ones. I can appreciate the notion that no one should have guns, but it’s far too late for that. I hope the day never comes when I have to use a gun in self defense or in the defense of another, but if it does, I will not hesitate to pull the trigger. That’s all there is to it.
@drakonerythros, First I agree with a lot of what you say, even if you have a sense of right and wrong you have to agree that killing someone who likely will go on to harm more people is a moral thing to do.
As you said, there is no right or wrong, only our perceptions of that which are due to experience and cultural conditioning. But I will say, right or wrong or otherwise, there are advantages and disadvantages to situations and actions, and how we deal with these situations and actions depends on each our strengths and weakness.
If you call it right or wrong or not, you cannot deny that when done correctly, things have benefits. That is what this debate is about if people want to be objective, anti-gun people are extreme, pro-gun people are extreme, both are far too heavily invested emotionally to possibly be reasonably objective.
@trek79, Sure, I can agree with that. Which is probably why no middle ground will ever be taken. But I feel like a lot of people who are anti-gun aren’t facing the reality. Guns are not going anywhere for a very, very long time. As much as we would all like for them not to exist, they do, and there are billions of them across the world. That being said, the only way I can ever see the world disarming itself is to change the way we all think, that no one is the enemy, and we are all one species. But it’s just not possible when you have bullshit like Fox News spewing garbage 24/7, and CNN, and all the other media news sources fear mongering. You don’t want guns in the world? Strike at the root, not at the branches. Until then, I’ll do as much good as I possibly can in this world, but I’m keeping my guns as long as there is need for them.