Rationalizing everything?

IncarnationOfRealism (@xxtobixx47) 8 years, 1 month ago

Greetings my fellow HEthens,
I come to you more with a request then with a post,
I´m just seraching for people who know the possibility of getting problems through different ways thinkings. I´m pretty much of a head-leaded persons due to my bad ability of realizing emotions.
Also im that guy who went through school understanding everything though keeping average grades all the time.

My problem is: I always try to – as said in title – rationalize everything, even the people.
It´s not like it´s not working i can mostly tell whats happening before it does but also – if i try to talk to people seeing things in my ways it seems like they simply CANT understand it, but as i think that´s depending to the strength of “hardening” in their mind.
Like every person is obliged to several emotionally controlled views, no matter if religion gender roles or as i think even human moral. (I´m not a kind of asshole or something since i understood what i could do i feel kind of afraid of personal relationships and just keep out of things like women until i know how to handle this without – unconsciously – manipulating them)
I´m trying to cut everything down to the purest root.
But it seems like at some point the reaction to my words just call reactions as if the argumentation is discursive.
As a good thing someday it started i kind of reduced my thoughts when im with people which is pretty often because when im not i feel like the only person in my own universe seeing it my way.

I´m sorry i the way of thinking im talking about is described pretty superficial but though i hope for some interesting answers :)

August 21, 2014 at 6:23 am
Anonymous (64) (@) 8 years, 1 month ago ago

I have the same issue. I feel like all around me people are taking very narrow minded views, following the lead of the conventional media, forming opinions without really understanding issues or seeking to learn the historical back story that led us to this point, putting others down to bolster their own ego, narrowmindly siding with nationalistic or religious one sided views. I find it rare I can talk to anyone in an open minded way using critical thinking and expect a sensible discussion. I’m not looking for anyone to agree with me (truly), I’m just looking to have an open minded Socratic kind of intellectual discussion that transcends the conventional wisdom (if appropriate) and allows the free exchange of ideas. And it seems like the world is getting crazier and crazier by the day for the lack of these kinds of discussions. For example does anyone else see the issues with the perpetual wars we are fighting in countries that most people can’t identify on a map or tell you thing one about what the issues are there, the 24/7 news cycles of biased crap that just bolsters fear and hatred, the constant bombardment of advertising and consumerism, the ideas that 90%+ of the population is going to work 12 hours a day to do a job that has no meaning to them to buy shit that also has no meaning to them, that we live in these first world countries that are colonizing and almost enslaving second and third world countries so that we can have a cheap synthetic wrinkle free pair of slacks or a new handsfree headset, that we are living in 4000 square foot McMansions and eating five enormous meals per day at red lobster while ten of thousands of children around the world will die today of malnutrition. We are working feverishly and spending billions to keep 90 year olds alive to be 91 and cure wrinkles while the majority of deaths around the world could be prevented by a few cents worth of antibiotics or providing clean driving water + sanitation to children. I could go on and on (and on) but my head would explode — and no one wants to talk about these issues and inequalities in a meaningful way and it is driving me crazy. I meditate to try to stop my mind from this agonizing thinking and am just looking for someone to talk to about these issues–without being told I’m pessimistic or have a bizarre view of the world. Where are the like minded people who want to gather together to change the world to a peaceful loving place that values all equally and spreads the more than adequate resources in an equitable fashion that is devoid of ego and greed.

Anyway, I’m ranting, I suppose. Just a shout out to tell you I feel where you are coming from and wish you a lot of love and peace. This having taken the red pill thing can make for a really tough existence once you see the world for what it really is.

I find comfort in this quote from Herman Hesse “it is not a good thing when man overstrains reason and tries to reduce to rational order matters that are not susceptible of rational treatment.” It is from the book Steppenwolfe. I also would recommend Nausea by Satre. They are both about the theater of the absurd that we live in. The existential angst that some of us are faced with.

In the end the best I can figure (and reading Kierkegaard is helping me form this opinion). Is that most people have a psychological defense mechanism against all their fears in the world and formulate very complex lies and stories in order to be able to exist with these overdeveloped minds that are capable of rationalizing all these inequities. The others may be the sane ones for having evolved these complex neurosis to cope with the situation we find ourselves born in to. (I’d recommend Ernest Becker’ Denial of Death for an interesting read on this subject.) And it is not difficult to see why they cling to these neurosis when it means probable insanity if they dismantle their defense mechanisms–so they instinctively choose not to have discussions that would break down the psyches because historically (and genetically) the ones who let their psychological guards down went crazy and were selected against by nature.

I’m going to go take a Xanax and a nap.

Peace.

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Anonymous (12) (@) 8 years, 1 month ago ago

Knowing the suffering of the universal identity should dim the suffering of our individual one. I think if we all live with the utmost care for the people around us and develop whatever we are best suited to give to the world- that is more improvement for the world than drowning in powerlessness towards the state of things. It’s very hard to rationalize going after your fittest potential for survival when you can empathize with all of life, but it’s very hard to rationalize anything truly. It’s a limited tool.

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IncarnationOfRealism (15) (@xxtobixx47) 8 years, 1 month ago ago

Let me maintain its not a limited tool. I think it gets harder the further you get but at some point you just continue automatically. Analyzing everything. Most of the people seem not to realize how much of their true intentions they really show. But you cant improve what doesnt want to be improved (while its not even sure its an improvement). Most people dont want to see the bigger picture and dont want to understand that most of their mental routines are pretty destructive for their environment and their surrounding people.

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Anonymous (12) (@) 8 years, 1 month ago ago

Well I agree there is no limit to the time you can spend analyzing something and you can expand your ability to communicate that way, as well as inspire new thoughts in people that haven’t considered things as much. But I believe the only answer to a behavioral problem is to lead by example and not to try to change people’s minds about things, because an argument can be made for every opinion.

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IncarnationOfRealism (15) (@xxtobixx47) 8 years, 1 month ago ago

Though whatever it is you take action or be example for – the louder you are the better it works. Also even if for AllWhoWander its monkey mind i´m not sure if this pure rationalization is a good thing for whole humanity. It would be the win of rationaliy over instinctivity. A random sucessful mutation over an even older random mutation. Nothing for universe but a huge change for humanity and our definition of “humanity”. But how could we as we emotionally suffer from reality force the blind ones to open their eyes?

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Anonymous (12) (@) 8 years, 1 month ago ago

True that whoever believes most in spreading their views will dominate the more passive. “The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams” more than everyone else’s dreams. I don’t think rationality is really the best word… It sounds the morality of the society is what frustrates you whereas if it was rationality that could justify anything based on ones beliefs, like killing the less conscious people because you see them as a cancer to the earth. I think we rather need to be more in touch with our individual instincts instead of the mass conformity of the whole. That’s because I believe our instincts are generally to serve humanity as a whole and not hurt it. This is where discussions are hard because even though words have clear definitions the meaning is often very different to each person. The loudest might win or everyone can break off and peacefully do their own thing… Since you have only your eyes it’s kind of unfounded to call others blind. But everyone here can relate to that feeling. And the more people share that everyone else seems blind to them the more we can blend perspectives to respect everyone’s actions and not interfere so much with each other’s will.

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IncarnationOfRealism (15) (@xxtobixx47) 8 years, 1 month ago ago

Totally agree. Maybe answer some more when im less high. :)

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Anonymous (64) (@) 8 years, 1 month ago ago

Yours is such an important reminder. I’ve had glimpses of the peace and optimism that comes when you can master the mind and flow peacefully with the river rather than struggling to get to the other side. I am of no use to this world until I can dwell in this universal peace and oneness. I used to think it self serving and egotistical to want to calm my mind before helping others but now I know it is the only way to truly radiate light. Still, this monkey mind is persistent and rages against being ignored. I will continue to work on it. Peace and love.

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IncarnationOfRealism (15) (@xxtobixx47) 8 years, 1 month ago ago

That term “monkey mind”.. just great. If you dont mind keep me up to date whatever you try that helps!

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IncarnationOfRealism (15) (@xxtobixx47) 8 years, 1 month ago ago

Maybe it´s just for you seem to be a native english speaker, but i love the way you described it. It just perfectly hits the spot. Sometimes there are people even listening, but they simply say its an interesting view and dont really think about it. I want somebody who´s able to follow those trails and thinks critically about it maybe even changes my opinion and lets my view grow because i just hope it to be a good thing. But as your answer and the fates of most of the biggest thinkers let me suppose it really is a bad thing.. I anyway do think if more people thought self-critical at this level the world would be much easier. I mean being in a room with other people feels like im the only one awake. Theyre sleeping or even better to say more of a receiver then a processor. If theyre in a situation they seen before (on friends or tv or whatever) they dont know how to react just like a lemming. But whats there to do about it? I think its about finding as much people like us as possible and make the best of it – now that i know im not the only one. Good luck my friend!

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Renato (0) (@Renato) 8 years, 1 month ago ago

Hi there, I know how you feel, it’s very hard to find someone to talk about this very deep topics (those are the greatest conversations). As you said, most of the people I know can say it’s interesting and don’t really think about it; and I understand that, it’s something I’m passionate about but no everyone feels the same way, so what I like to do its to find what others are really passionate about, there is always a lot to learn :)

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IncarnationOfRealism (15) (@xxtobixx47) 8 years, 1 month ago ago

That´s exactly what keeps me moving. Find the people looking behind the curtains and grow with them and help them grow. Thanks for your short but fitting answer :)

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Anonymous (12) (@) 8 years, 1 month ago ago

My opinion is the truth is an experience. Even among the most critical thinkers there will be dispute. The purest root is the feeling you’re trying to rationalize.

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IncarnationOfRealism (15) (@xxtobixx47) 8 years, 1 month ago ago

Of course in fact as said i crave for some intellectual dispute about such topics

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Anonymous (12) (@) 8 years, 1 month ago ago

I used to crave that too but debating such topics often becomes a competition for the master of reality. That’s why speaking from a place of subjective feelings about a topic can create a less hostile environment for discussion and make people more open.

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Marlon (97) (@shoeopener) 8 years, 1 month ago ago

Making the world more passive aggressive one person at a time. Can’t see what else this thread is about.

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Anonymous (64) (@) 8 years, 1 month ago ago

Touche my friend. Thread killing by passive aggressively commenting (ie. indirectly without addressing the actual point) on the perceived passive aggressiveness of the other commenters. It is the double dog dare of passive aggressiveness and uncounterable. We concede. (Only slightly well lesser known then the the age old adage to never get involved in a land war in Asia.) You are a strong force here Marlon. Truly. Your psychological mind bending responses have opened my mind many times. Peace and good tidings friend.

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Marlon (97) (@shoeopener) 8 years, 1 month ago ago

Much love and peace on Mars!

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Anonymous (328) (@) 8 years, 1 month ago ago

You just haven’t been talking to the right people. Or you just haven’t discovered the philosophy that’s in the same vein. Look around more.

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IncarnationOfRealism (15) (@xxtobixx47) 8 years, 1 month ago ago

It started with great replies but goes into a really wrong direction right now – i only do want to collect experience of others who know the problem of not having the choice. Who took the blue pill and cant go back. As in one of my replies said im completely aware that maybe rationality is a bad way. Please dont assume im having any intention except for sharing experience with this post.

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Anonymous (12) (@) 8 years, 1 month ago ago

:)

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Anonymous (328) (@) 8 years, 1 month ago ago

Test yourself. Not other people.

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Lu (2) (@Luciferum) 8 years, 1 month ago ago

This has probably have been one of the most durable topics in the history of humankind.
I came at the point to focus on two main different elements:

-One is the difficulty in communication you also described (they CAN T understand)
-One follow the theory that we are all different,probably a lot more that what we think + my personal experience.

At the Greek ancient philosophers time they tried to solve the ‘communication’ problems between human.
One from the Sophist school said that ‘it doesn’t exist a complete correspondance between our thoughts and our language’ it follows another quote from Cicerone that says ‘ before talking,we should agree on the meanings of the words’ .
Is not a surprise the fact that different experience in life make us ‘feel the words’ with different ‘shades’,depending from the nature of the experience made us learning that new word.
But to me both quotes could be partially contradict by learning a complex language. I believe that the more a language offers you the most widely range of shades of main terms,the more you can express specifically your thoughts and the more other people can communicate with you meaning approximately the same thing as you as they have really specific terms to describe their thinking so not affected by only feelings coming from experience.
It comes another problem then: you and your interlocutor should speak the same ‘level’ of language.
I experienced that learning English.
Most of the time I don’t express myself specifically as I would do in my mother tongue,Italian;at the beginning I thought that the English language was kind of ‘easier’ and ‘simpler’ than my language, but reading classic English authors and so on I obviously discovered that a more complex usage of this language exist,the problem is that seems is not well spread,at least to me. For 2 years I ‘ve been living in UK in both England and Scotland and most of the time people I talk to have my same language average (even when they speak with other people) , in some cases I discovery that to me is easier to face the ‘spelling’ problem than native English speakers. I don’t want to seem arrogant,it’s just my impression .. I may change my mind and I’m opened to do so.

Regarding the second point, WE ARE ALL DIFFERENT. Apart from the perceptions, I started to believe that we cannot really match with anyone.
I know that because I met a person,probably the one that is most close to the concept of ‘ THE PERSON’ , that for the first time made me feel NOT ALONE anymore;for the first time I met a person a could really communicate with,a person that could UNDERSTAND (but REALLY understand) my own vision of the world. For example,we were focusing our attention on the same things..but we were similar as two people feeling for the first time understood could be,we had really close but also really different opinions.the following example may sounds crazy or stupid or bland to others but I’ll report it,cause I don’t know how to describe well our affinity. Once we were having a pizza in a restaurant, in front of our table that was a noisy group of a couple of families with their children.
Two of these children started to play with their puppets moving their chairs (that transformed in puppet’s houses I suppose) to the corridor between our tables. Me and my friend were watching enchanted this children because they were able to create their own world in busy restaurant,separating themselves from the parent .. and all the other consideration you can make on those situations (I usually hate children,these were particularly interesting ) ,but suddendly , after few minutes,the parents reprimand them in a rude way for being noisy when actually they were being noisy too and other things, both me and my friend stated comments on this act quite simultaneously,this was an example of how we had the same perception of situations that surround us but also we make different conclusion when it comes a more complex debate.
After him I never found again someone that could deeply and really understanding me like him,someone that make me feel not alone. Eventually we took different path of lives and we don’t talk anymore to each other. That happened quite naturally but have to say that to me was hard to accept that we were separating,as I didn’t want to be back to loneliness again. I’m a very social person, have lot of friends,acquitances,I’m a quite charming person and I live with a partner and so on, but I know that i didn’t met yet another person able to write me this ‘ I could love any women’s body, but the thought survives,YOUR is the mind. ‘ .

I wanted to share my experience as I really care about this topic.
Good luck :)

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IncarnationOfRealism (15) (@xxtobixx47) 8 years, 1 month ago ago

I dont have much more to say then thanks! I really liked your story as in fact it remembers me of one special person. Not the best ending but i learned that irrational things like love can appear everywhere. I couldve never talked to her about,, well.. most more or less complicated things but anyway we somehow saw the world in mostly similar lights. Anyway sometimes i think its just necessary to talk to a person maybe even seeing it in a different light but describing it on a way on your level of language. As i know this is an important thing im even more sorry about my bad english skills :D

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Eliphas Levi’s book (0) (@Eliphas Levi) 8 years, 1 month ago ago

You can read the world around you but never truly the minds others

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Eliphas Levi’s book (0) (@Eliphas Levi) 8 years, 1 month ago ago

It’s called too trippy for convo, sounds like you’re having touble because these people are too stuck in the maze of socitety we have created and it is a system. I recently flipped the veil of the maze of a friend just by tripping him out and alking about the wr o your spritualiy and faith

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