Satan as good, god as evil.

 Brandon (@unstoppableobject)7 years, 9 months ago

I’ve given some thought over the years as to the possibility that (this is just an assumption/hypothetical of Judeo-Christian mythology, I am an atheist) Satan is in fact what humanity should identify as a force for “good” (as relative as good and evil may be) and Yahweh, God, whatever you want to call it, would be an example of evil.

After all, it’s God that demands obedience to at times, completely arbitrary rules, to which the punishment that could follow being stoning or even death.

For example: Deuteronomy 21:18-21

“If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, “This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard.” 21 Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death.”

The advocation of slavery, misogyny, turning people into pillars of salt, burning entire cities, telling Abraham to murder his son… the list goes on and on.

He does plenty, it seems, for the people who seem to curry his favor (at least temporarily) but he is much more responsibly for directly inflicting death and suffering than that I know of Satan, if someone could bring up some examples of Satan’s hand in killing, or “evil” work, I would like to read up on it.

But, I have yet to here much in the way of Satan’s misdoings, I hear about him leading Adam and Eve “astray” from the garden, but my interpretation is that he introduces disobedience to authority, questioning… and most obviously KNOWLEDGE! to humanity.

Satan asks not for obedience, he does not smite, he does not kill, judge, or send his son to be tortured and crucified.

If I’m correct, the word Satan doesn’t even have any necessarily negative connotation, it just means “one who opposes.”

Enlighten me :)

April 16, 2013 at 2:59 pm
Kidd (1,059) (@kidd) 7 years, 9 months ago ago

I am inclined to utterly agree.

There’s God as light, but also ignorance–which I find ironic.

Lucifer–translated to “light bringer” or “light bearer”–makes much more sense.

Satanism makes sense in some regards, lol

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Cosmic (79) (@cosmicd46) 7 years, 9 months ago ago

@unstoppableobject,

Honestly, I don’t possess much knowledge about the precise doings of God and Satan but I find your argument and the above chart intriguing.

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Anonymous (214) (@) 7 years, 9 months ago ago

^ I agree, it’s a refreshing new perspective with tangible proof

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Cosmic (79) (@cosmicd46) 7 years, 9 months ago ago

@unstoppableobject,

What God said to Lucifer, from Ezekiel 28:12-18.

“You were the seal of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty

You were anointed as a guardian cherub”
So Lucifer was an angel of the highest order. Did his intellect allow him to question God’s motives?

“Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty”
Vain or simply self-confident?

“you corrupted your wisdom”
Or applied his knowledge in an alternative, original way?

“I threw you to the earth;
I made a spectacle of you before kings

I reduced you to ashes on the ground
in the sight of all who were watching”
Public humiliation?

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel+28%3A12-18&version=NIV

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Anonymous (214) (@) 7 years, 9 months ago ago

@cosmicd46, dang, god was pissed lol

So much for forgiveness and unconditional love

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Thus Spoke Haze (102) (@ehsan) 7 years, 9 months ago ago

@unstoppableobject, I have often thought about altering the common roles and attributes of these two grand metaphors. Although, I don’t think the solution is the polar opposite.

I think some things that our society associates with evil are actually not entirely bad, and vice versa for things we associate with with good. I personally derive most of my morals from personal experiences as well as what has been outlined by social philosophies and great texts. Relying so heavily on the metaphors that are outlined by religions instead of looking past them to identify the fundamental principal behind each metaphor.

maybe

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Cosmic (79) (@cosmicd46) 7 years, 9 months ago ago

@ehsan,

The Bible seems to associate evil with anything that is sinful or disobeys God.

I agree with you about personally deriving morals from a number of sources.

“instead of looking past them to identify the fundamental principal behind each metaphor”
I agree again. I think this issue can arise when the metaphors are interpreted literally.

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KevinSG (105) (@flyingrhino) 7 years, 9 months ago ago

@unstoppableobject, You have to realize most of the bible was written by those that wanted to control. Also what they wrote was heavily influenced by the living standards and moral lines of the time. IE: If the bible was actually written today, instead of 2000 years ago, I highly doubt they would actually stone a rebellious son to death. Maybe make him go to some strick church thing or something.

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Anonymous (214) (@) 7 years, 9 months ago ago

I’ve seen multiple interviews with Vatican priests who have confirmed that Satan was an invention of the church to control the masses.

Look them up if you need proof I’ve already seen half a dozen

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Josh (2) (@joshbaber) 7 years, 9 months ago ago

@unstoppableobject, Have you read Paradise Lost by John Milton?

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Adam (118) (@moonglade) 7 years, 9 months ago ago

It’s an interesting thought. Satan told eve to eat the fruit of knowledge. Satan gave us free will where God wanted us to stay his slaves. Maybe he even made the bible as a atempt to re-enslave us. Maybe hell is heaven and heaven is hell.

I think I saw a post somewhere where somebody elaborated on this possibility

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Anonymous (15) (@) 7 years, 9 months ago ago

@unstoppableobject, you bring out a very valid point. The entire goal of ‘God’ as Christians perceive him is to bring humanity under his rule. To inform people of his power so that thy may worship him under their own free will. However, the punishment for exercising your free will in a way that is displeasing to God brings a world of pain and suffering. This completely defeats the purpose of having free- will.
If you believe in the teachings of the bible, then Satan really should not be veined as some horrible, evil, life- destroying force. Yes, Satan is in direct opposition to God. But Satan never demands worship or servitude. or even recognition. Satan’s goals are to elevate man to his highest potential, without being in submission to anyone.

As a side-note, this is along the lines of Ayn Rands Philosophy, and one of the reasons I love her so dearly.

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smalls (68) (@smalls) 7 years, 9 months ago ago

@unstoppableobject, It’s an interesting idea. Kind of like a ‘history is written by the victor’ kind of story. The war in heaven, Satan challenged God for the throne, and God won so Satan was banished and God was free to say whatever he wanted about him.

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Anonymous (214) (@) 7 years, 9 months ago ago

@joshbaber, I’ve always wanted to read that book, what’s like the general topic of it?

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Anonymous (0) (@) 7 years, 9 months ago ago

Satan actually wanted to end Adam and Eve out of there miserable existence. What kind of existence is it if everything is perfect? Isn’t it a boring existence if everything is perfect, which means no need to learn and grow? How can you conceive a heaven if you never experienced or knew there was a such thing as suffering or hell?

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Anonymous (78) (@) 7 years, 9 months ago ago

Check out one the lost sea scroll text “The apocryphon of John” which provides a back story for the garden of eden story, satan, the creation of humans, and the godhead. Gives the old testament a bit more context. Interesting stuff and far more complex then the canonized and censored versions of the old and new testament that we are used to.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocryphon_of_John

The visions are so complex that they make me think of a DMT trip. Betting Acacia and Syrian Rue played some role in this.

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Ray Butler (1,423)M (@trek79) 7 years, 9 months ago ago

@unstoppableobject, Scientifically, the Yin/Yang perspective is more accurate than saying there is good and evil. Neither Yin nor Yang is the bad one, they are opposites but adding connotations to the righteousness or wikedness of their roles is little more than an emotional outburst.
You have constructive relationships that we should encourage liberty for as life improves as they prosper, then there are destructive forces that need to be stopped, avoided or focused toward a beneficial purpose.
This is the Cause and Effect Universe, it is all just water flowing down the river, a kid could drown in the river, rain may cause the river to flood and wipe out a town, but the river is not evil it is just performing its function according to the natural physical lays that contain it.
Now people can make choices that are on a scale from most beneficial to most intolerable, there are natural human weakness’ that account for the choices each of us make. Humans each have strength and weakness, someone may do the wrong thing because they were not aware of the right thing, or maybe it is because they wanted to be harmful in which case it is a self-control fault, they lack compassion or they were tempted by revenge or personal gain.
These deliberate faults of human action should not be connotated as evil or good either, they fall under the Yin/Yang system of strengths and weakness, constructive relationships and destructive forces, freedom and control; there are useful methods and applications, directing the dynamics of the universe to capitalize advantage and minimize disadvantage.
Even malicious criminal intent is classifiable under fallible human nature; a psychopath has brain malfunctions that a general person does not, malfunctions that by-pass empathic filters or compassionate, even logical, reasoning processes.
That is a weakness that destroys the psychopaths smooth functioning within our society. We hate the psycho and act against him/her because the psychos actions disadvantage the smooth functioning of our society. That is disadvantage all round because of a brain malfunction in one person, because of a scientifically observable, treatable or containable, weakness.

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TheSkaFish (962)M (@theskafish) 7 years, 9 months ago ago

The alien governors of early Earth were drunk and fired their lasers indiscriminately, hence the God kill count was so high. I still think booze was given to us by aliens as a practical joke – they were bored, and got cavemen wasted for a laugh.

@cosmicd46, I see that in spite of God being ahead by, oh, a couple million, Satan did manage to eke out a mere 10 kills. Who did Satan kill, anyway?

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Cosmic (79) (@cosmicd46) 7 years, 9 months ago ago

@theskafish,

With God’s approval, Job’s children (he had seven sons and three daughters). But I’ve read online that God brings them back to life. I’m currently reading parts of the Bible (it’s literally on my lap right now) in an attempt to understand the matter fully.

Anyhow, the following is from the Book of Job (I omitted bits and summarised others for convenience).

‘Job was a prosperous man with lots of animals, children and servants. He was the richest man in the East. He worshipped God and was faithful to him.
One day when the heavenly beings came before the Lord, Satan was among them. The Lord asked, “What have you been doing?” Satan replied, “I have been walking here and there, roaming round the earth.”
The Lord proceeded by commenting on how faithful and good Job is. Satan then asked, “Would Job worship you if he got nothing out of it? You bless everything he does…But now suppose you take away everything he has – he will curse in your face!”
“All right”, the Lord said to Satan, “everything he has is in your power, but you must not hurt Job himself.”
Satan left. Job’s children and wealth were destroyed.’

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Cosmic (79) (@cosmicd46) 7 years, 9 months ago ago

@theskafish,

Yes, the conclusion of the Book of Job states:
“In spite of everything he suffered, Job said nothing against God…the Lord made him prosperous again and gave him twice as much as he had had before…Job lived 140 years after this, long enough to see his grandchildren and great-grandchildren.”

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Cosmic (79) (@cosmicd46) 7 years, 9 months ago ago

@justinr,

“I’ve seen multiple interviews with Vatican priests who have confirmed that Satan was an invention of the church to control the masses.”

Interesting and it makes sense. Do you recommend any in particular?

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FlackoElGuapo (4) (@flacko) 7 years, 9 months ago ago

The devil is a liar and master of deception (even deceived god)…the bible is like rat poison 99% cookie and 1% arsenic but that one percent kills every time..god is in your essence and in the Quran I’m sure Allah stated that a false book would appear and fool everyone Christian bible? It’s a huge game of deception seen everyday literally in the belly of the beast (America)

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Simon (15) (@taoisman) 7 years, 9 months ago ago

I’ve always thought of Satan as a rebel, going against age-old conventions. I tend to like free thinkers. People that brand him evil argue that he promotes the sins. From what I’ve read in Satanism, however, it simply states that one should not completely discard selfishness. Since this is “kind of” the opposite of the altruism Christians would promote, I can see how it’s easy to use Satan as a scape goat.

Of course, it’s not really the opposite. Nor is there much, in the way of actions, that makes Satan and God opposites in the actual bible.

@cosmicd46, ‘Tis quite interesting that Lucifer was the seal of perfection. Perhaps he was so wise that he was able to rise above the indoctrination of ancient traditions and an oppressive God. Even if God was that way in order to maintain peace.

When I think of it like that, it becomes a conflict of order/stagnation and change/chaos (anyone read the books on the Eternal Champion, such as Hawkmoon, by Michael Moorcock?). Naturally the people who wrote the bible wanted stability at the time, and I really don’t blame them for that. Too bad it’s such an effective tool for power.

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