Separation of man and church

 Tine (@tine) 4 years, 9 months ago

Where do you draw the line? here are some starting focal points for this thought,

do you believe what the religion teaches you, through practices, is the same as the example jesus set? ( i mainly speak from a receptiveness-to-everyone standpoint )

do you think that there are man-made elements within the religion that take advantage of the perfect example jesus set? ( i mainly speak of controlling mindsets )

would you then agree that, these man-made elements can be easily seen if you consider all of them from [the example jesus set]? ( by example, i mean the cause // effect outcome of how he went about reality )

please think deeply on this, in particular, you with Christian backgrounds. the problem is not the example, it is the people, and a system that promotes mental separation contrary to jesus’s example

December 18, 2013 at 7:52 am
backcase (204) (@backcase) 4 years, 9 months ago ago

Forgive me if I do not answer your questions directly, I am going to try to capture the essence of them all in my response.

For those who do not know I will give a little background info. I was born into a ‘lukewarm’ catholic family. Which means that religion was not that important, but rather, dull. My mother carries the full embodiment of Christ’s teachings, but she was so humble and content that the family became more indulged into the regular world.

A few years back I had an experience which ignited a fire within me which made me search for knowledge of God and of my soul. I have done so ever since.

Religion as an organization aims just to keep teachings alive, and it does a pretty good job of that, yet religions history and arrogance in itself being such a righteous cause dismantles the face, giving only a blurry image of the truth to those who just glace over the surface.

You can look at the church from the eyes of a believer and see that the true wealth of being a member is in spirit. Commonly you hear less of things like that because goodness is always humble and rarely praises itself. There are many humble and wonderful souls which benefit from the church and the insight their pastor has.

If you look at the church from the eyes of one who opposes it, you see wealth only in the pockets of those who take advantage of it, and you see those people trying to forge control to increase their wealth. I am not saying this is wrong, I would say it has occurred and is occurring.

But that is just the surface. I am sure many of you have seen a very ugly looking person who is actually very kind, very amiable, and very wise.

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CarolALogan (8) (@CarolALogan) 4 years, 9 months ago ago

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backcase (204) (@backcase) 4 years, 9 months ago ago

Continued:

In my conclusion I will say that the teachings are still there for all who can read them. You will find them illuminating to the soul.

The symbol of the Crucifix:

Christ has embraced this world with his arms open. Crucifixion was the fate of a thief, it was embarrassing, mocked, ridiculed, despised, everything. But Christ has made it into a sign of hope, of mercy, of love, of light, of truth, and of selflessness.

He hangs there for us, he lived for us, he hangs for us continually for each one of us personally. We all have our crosses to bear, not alone, but in His presence.

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Tine (366) (@tine) 4 years, 9 months ago ago

thank you for your reply and interest in this subject, what would you say if you applied all the questions i just asked to the tradition of accepting the lord jesus christ as your lord and savior into your heart, and that it is this detail that guarantees salvation,

i am not speaking to your directly as you may see beyond this tradition, but what is your opinion on the

1) tradition in regards to jesus’s example and

2) what is the cause // effect of the us and them mindset any mental barrier inevitably creates and

3) does this reflect the way jesus was receptive to people and

4) what does this then imply about the origin of the tradition and

5) why might man wish to create a ‘us and them mindset’

please note i am not asking for your opinion on what you think is relevant about what i ask, i am asking you to step outside your mindset and consider my questions with the thought, why might this be true?

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backcase (204) (@backcase) 4 years, 9 months ago ago

1) I assume you mean the whole ‘accepting the lord jesus christ as your lord and savior into your heart’ thing. It’s a phrase each should meditate on and not take at face value. By just saying that you accept him into your heart does not mean you do. It means to live in his presence when times are easy and when they are tough. In this way we bear our crosses and overcome sin and death and achieve salvation.

2) The cause and effect of an us/them mindset is caused by opposition between two groups. People are not fond of differences or challenges so when one side is challenged it becomes a war, instead of a sound and fruitful contemplation. The cause is pride, the effect, if pride is not stopped, is a greater pride. It makes a mental barrier in that we are being more self righteous than having the aim of the greater good.

3) Jesus adopted the virtuous approach, he would stay on the side of peace unless the situation called for justice. He is the authority on the discernment of such.

IE: Jesus was merciful to the adulteress who the pharisees wanted to stone; Jesus turned the tables of the money changers.

4)This implies that the origin of the tradition rests on God, the Immutable Judge. We must rely on him, because alone we are corrupt.

5) I would say man would create and us/them mindset for many different reasons, but to say I know as fact which one would be lying.

But what I think that you are implying would be that the ‘us and them mindset’ was planted as a seed in us through means of the scripture. So that man would fight man and that those who are in control of each side would obtain wealth.

Am I correct on this?

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Tine (366) (@tine) 4 years, 9 months ago ago

you are, thank you for replying, sry it took a sec to reply,

on #(4) i would say, if the tradition creates an us and them mindset, even if not intended for that purpose, this is not of jesus, bc jesus drew no lines, would you agree or disagree with this, and why?

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backcase (204) (@backcase) 4 years, 9 months ago ago

I would say the us and them mindset can be different. There will always be an us and them until people realize the true religion. But the ‘us’, can be kind to the ‘them’ and consider that they are one of ‘us’ although for the time being the ‘them’ cannot or do not wish to understand so.

Jesus did draw a line. The path to the Kingdom is narrow and straight, he walked it.

So I would disagree, and say that Jesus fulfilled the law, he did not destroy it, rather, he perfected it.

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Tine (366) (@tine) 4 years, 9 months ago ago

|| Jesus did draw a line. The path to the Kingdom is narrow and straight, he walked it. ||

right, he did walk it, and his example is his legacy he leaves to us, the, how-and-why-he-walked-it,

i am pointing to a major, major, major condition in the religion, the one that, to most people, is the only thing that really matters, this separating of the mind of the us and them with the acceptance of jesus,

and how this directly contrasts to the example that jesus set,

and how this likens more to a pharisee mindset, this religion we have today, then any true enlightenment or practice,

everyone is to worried about their label, and know i am not saying you, i mean this very generally

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Tine (366) (@tine) 4 years, 9 months ago ago

and please note nothing i say is against jesus, at all, i am speaking only within the context, and confines, of the religion itself,

i truly believe jesus was a shining example of how we should conduct ourselves, and it is from this that his teachings, his messages, come, how he lived by example,

so to me, the real purpose of Christianity, the point of it, is to live by {{ his }} example, [not] practices of the church,

what are your thoughts on this?

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backcase (204) (@backcase) 4 years, 9 months ago ago

Does his example not involve obedience to the religion given by God? Jesus performed all of the rites of the Hebrew religion. He kept the sabbath holy and all that good stuff.

But he wants us to have inside of the cup clean, as it is more important than the outside.

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Tine (366) (@tine) 4 years, 9 months ago ago

|| Does his example not involve obedience to the religion given by God? ||

^this is where i am, is the religion of God ? or is the religion a man – made structure on top of God ?

looking at how religion has been used makes me strongly assume the latter, the man – made,

bc i first look to how jesus treated people , and then i look at the cause // effect of following a religion and how this impacts the way they treat people,

and i dont see jesus’s example in it, bc i dont see the open mindset following jesus’s example would bring a person

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Tine (366) (@tine) 4 years, 9 months ago ago

@backcase,

|| bc i first look to how jesus treated people , and then i look at the cause // effect of following a religion and how this impacts the way they treat people,

and i dont see jesus’s example in it, bc i dont see the open mindset following jesus’s example would bring a person ||

^this^ in particular, re-read that, really let it sink in, i want your deep opinion on this, bc i really think this is a problem

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Anonymous (9) (@) 4 years, 9 months ago ago

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apwriter (0) (@apwriter) 4 years, 9 months ago ago

There is an amazing movement which some are calling the “hyper-grace” movement. Basically, it’s that Jesus is who He says He is. Love. And our ONLY focus should be on that Perfect Love. It’s from that place and that place alone that we should understand and act on His Word. All sin has been forgiven and He remembers it NO MORE. There is therefore no more condemnation for those who love Him. Ck out the radical but scriptural sermons of Joseph Prince, TD Jakes, Hillsong, etc. Free at last. Free at last. Thank God Almighty I am free at last. The Law kills. The spirit gives life. If you aren’t being blown away by the reality of God’s presence and love via preaching, praise and fellow Christian worshipers, find a church that does. Our God is the LIVING God. The same yesterday, today and forever. If it feels like history instead of current events, you are missing out. (ck out //www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSiBv-ntZd8)

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apwriter (0) (@apwriter) 4 years, 9 months ago ago

and ck out this from Hillsong/ NYC //www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDAiQn18Rxw

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backcase (204) (@backcase) 4 years, 9 months ago ago

@tine, “and i dont see jesus’s example in it, bc i dont see the open mindset following jesus’s example would bring a person”

My opinion is that the humble people of a church, are much less thought of than the tyrants. Also, I am really having a hard time understanding your statement that you want my opinion on so badly.

Could you re phrase?

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Tine (366) (@tine) 4 years, 9 months ago ago

|| understanding your statement that you want my opinion on so badly. ||

its genuine, my interest

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backcase (204) (@backcase) 4 years, 9 months ago ago
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Tine (366) (@tine) 4 years, 9 months ago ago

man, i really tried to read that, but i got to,

|| Furthermore, many churches and preachers refuse to take a stand against sin and rarely if ever mention the need for repentance or topics like hell and judgment. Many of these same churches allow people to minister in music, as small group leaders and even as ministers with no personal accountability while looking the other way when they are living sexually immoral lives and regularly engaged in drunkenness! ||

and had to stop, none of that has anything to do with jesus’s example, in fact, jesus himself hung out with and picked as his disciples ‘those type’ of ppl, that author is not displaying christ in his judgements or logic, but seems to be an authority on the subject,

as for the main topic,

|| We have gone from theology to therapy in the pulpits. In the past decade, we went from therapy to motivational speaking instead of preaching. ||

i dont how this author defines theology, is he referring to reading from the bible and attempting to interpret and explain them ?

again, i dont seem much validity here either, yes, people are trying different approaches… this is what happens, and there are always those that oppose change, always, even if just on GP

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ChristinaJPrice (0) (@ChristinaJPrice) 4 years, 9 months ago ago

ok

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Mats (0) (@matsalexander) 4 years, 9 months ago ago

The biggest difference I can see in what Jesus preached, and what the church is preaching, is that Jesus preached about love, while the church preaches about fear. I am not a practicing Christian, and haven’t read the bible since I was a kid, so I may be way off. I really do understand the benefits of going to church on a personal and spiritual level, and I think that anyone who finds joy in doing so should continue to do that.
However, I really wish for more people to start making up their own opinion. (Again, I haven’t touched the bible in many years) but I do think if one reads the bible, really read it, I think that most people will find other meanings to the words, and make up other opinions than those set by the church hundreds and hundreds of years ago.

Yes, go to church if it pleases you, and listen to all the wisdom the preacher has to offer. But remember that this wisdom come through this individual preachers social, personal, intellectual filters. Without YOUR interpretation of these words, the good things the preacher is trying to tell you, will be wasted on you. This one person does not have all the answers, and only fools think they do. A good preacher will make you think, not accept, and leave you with new questions (so you’ll come back next week ;) )

I am sure there are many preachers out there who fit this description, but there are those who aren’t as well, and that’s why it’s important for people to think for them selves. And that’s why all these man-made elements work so well, people who blindly accept the teachings of the church, will lose their own sense of power, and rely on the church to tell them what to do. The church knows this and takes advantage of this, but in my opinion, it’s not the church who is the main sinner, but the people who allow these elements to be true, accepting this, and not following what their hearts tell them is right.

God is all powerful, all loving, all knowing the bible tells us. Yet, we have also been told to be careful about the devil, because it is imagined that our ALL POWERFUL God will not be able to prevent such a creature to make us sinners. We have also been told that Jesus loves every single one of us unconditionally, on a few conditions; love him back and don’t fall on love with someone of your own sex. And our all loving God, this supreme and complete being, loves all his children with all of his heart, until you wrong him. Then he’ll dispose of you, as he, in all of his magnificence, made an error in giving you free will.

The above paragraph is not mentioned to offend anyone, and is not meant as disrespect to God or Jesus, but only illustrate the two polarities between the organized church and the teachings in the bible.

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backcase (204) (@backcase) 4 years, 9 months ago ago

@tine, I meant that I do not understand this line: ‘and i dont see jesus’s example in it, bc i dont see the open mindset following jesus’s example would bring a person’

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Tine (366) (@tine) 4 years, 9 months ago ago

jesus held no boundaries, for anyone, was even ridiculed for his choice in companions, bc to him, it was the heart he saw, the spirit of the person, not the social distinction

and if the ‘asking of jesus into your heart’ creates an [ us and them ] mindset, where it creates a social boundary where some people are accepted and those who do not believe are not ( this ties into that question being the [ key ] to heaven, the-level-of-importance-to-the-religion )

then i argue whether this tradition is really christlike, if, and only because, the tradition narrows the mind, as opposed to opens it up, like how Jesus was

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Yael Alonso (59) (@YaelAlonso) 4 years, 8 months ago ago

Part of Jesus’s teachings, supposedly, where against the very concept of a church organization, so it baffles me that anyone even cares what happens in that very secret and, in my opinion, creepy establishment known as the Vatican/Church. People should believe whatever they feel, unfortunately, organized religion does not truly allow this as it sets rules and dictates what you can and cannot believe as well as how to force your peers and, most disgusting of all, your children how to live their lives. Religious organizations would be okay if they were voluntary, however for many in the world, and even in the US, it is not voluntary. Even if you leave, your ideology will still be impacted by those early childhood indoctrination’s.

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Anonymous (175) (@) 4 years, 8 months ago ago

Yes.

The Romans rewrote the bible.

However, ALL religion is a man-made vehicle designed to promote earthly ends.

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