The God of the Old testament?

Justin (@justinc123) 9 years ago

So I want to talk about the Old Testament for a bit HE. You see, I consider myself a Christian but in a very Gnostic sense. I believe in the message Christ taught and I believe in the divinity Christ possessed, however I feel he came to show us that that same divinity exists within all of us, and that we have the potential to do “greater things than I” as he says in the New testament.

Now the Christ I follow and the God I believe in is one of unconditional love. I don’t believe in judgement, I don’t believe in eternal torment, and I don’t believe what I call God loves any of his children less because they call him by a different name than I do. And really, i believe there is nothing Christ said in the New testament that would go against this claim. If anything, if you include the Dead sea scrolls, Jesus would be an advocate for these same claims.

So, why is it, that the Christ’s self proclaimed father, considered the God of the Old testament, is so violent, so spiteful, hateful, and so worship hungry? Why is this God so dual and biased? Why does this God seem to have such a primitive and ungodly mindset? What are your theories on the contradictions between Christ/The New Testament/The Dead Sea Scrolls vs. The Old Testament? I’d love some opinions HE!

September 9, 2013 at 9:48 am
sgadaletaii (14) (@sgadaletaii) 9 years ago ago

I am not qualified whatsoever to speak in this area. I have not studied the OT or NT enough to make any sort of scholarly claims but I think you have to look at the context and time and by who these books were written. This always seems to answer more questions for me than trying to interpret Jesus’ message. For example, the people wrote the story of Adam and Eve depicted the devil as a snake because their oppressors at the time worshipped a snake as their god. So of course these people would want to give their oppressors’ god a bad wrap. I always find stuff like this fascinating. It explains so much about how the bible was influenced by humans and history.

[Hidden]
sjheath12 (0) (@sjheath12) 9 years ago ago

@justinc123, I appreciate you starting this discussion, I have been pondering the same thing recently as I am on the journey of figuring out my own spirituality. I believe the core teachings of Jesus are correct, but the hellfire and violence it condemns onto non-believers is contradicting to the teachings. I think that through the countless translations, the true essence of a loving God was lost and I believe this is because throughout western philosophical/ political history Christianity was the governing force, used by the governments of the time. And through the influence of those governments the translations were skewed to insight fear and to bring order. And I believe that too many people view the bible as completely literal, which I think is the wrong way to look at it, I believe that it should be looking at the text metaphorically. For example through the mistakes, the “sins” we make we will make our own hell for ourselves rather then some violent and worship seeking God as you said condemning it upon us.

[Hidden]
Justin (20) (@justinc123) 9 years ago ago

@sgadaletaii, No you’re exactly right. I think what people overlook far to often is that the Bible was written by man so it makes sense that it’s God would have very human characteristics. Take the concept of hell for example. I always like to challenge people with this scenario. If we were dating and I told you I don’t love you, I never want anything to do with you ever again and I never want to see your face again. Of course, you would probably be hurt, but chances are you wouldn’t go out of your way to make the rest of my Earthly existence miserable and pain filled. Some might, but most wouldn’t. Now if humans are capable of this by ANY mean, than why in the world would God not be?

[Hidden]
Justin (20) (@justinc123) 9 years ago ago

@sjheath12, I agree with you absolutely, and you bring up an excellent point with the idea of translation being skewed to better enlist the current mindset/dogma. And yes, many take it far to literally, which upsets me because when you bring up things like “The father and I are one and you are all my brethren” or “the kingdom of God is within man” or “Have I not said, ye shall do greater things than I?” that Jesus said and or in the Bible to them they have an entirely new list of reasons why you’re interpretation is wrong. But I’m getting off topic here lol.

[Hidden]
Justin (20) (@justinc123) 9 years ago ago

Anybody else?

[Hidden]
DaFunks (366)M (@Dafunks) 9 years ago ago

I try not to get into these talks any more… They always end the same.

I am a Atheist who was brainwashed with Christian values until I was able to think for myself. I have since spent much time debating these topics and reading up on them. I think Christianity is a sick and twisted religion (Along with most other religions).

Christ was a Jew (If he ever existed) and he goes into the facts that he agrees with the Old Testament. He makes it quite clear that he has not done away with the old laws:

“Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets; I came not to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished” – Mt. 5:17-18

The OT is very old (And many many versions exist as they were passed down by word of mouth) and if you really look into it you will see it is a very sick book. The Character God is one of a Dictator and a abusive one at that.
I find it really interesting that when Moses comes down with the 10 commandments (And many more) his first action is to murder, rape and pillage the village he is in.

Jesus followed and agreed with the Laws Moses wrote. He also expects YOU to follow these laws. I have listed them before in threads I made:

Things this Lord our God Omnipotent tells us we should do!

Why people think Christianity has any good values in it always amazes me. We should have ourgrown these childish religions by now. They are quite easy to dismiss now. I see nothing in them that we cant get from better sources.

Because of these Mythological books we have many bad things still in our society. Homophobia, racism, slavery and rape are all shown to be fine by Moses and his laws. Why anyone would wish to teach children these laws, read them the Books they come from, and then force these laws upon us… It sickens me.

Jesus may have some better views than are shown in OT. This is not a hard thing to do when you take a look at it. Just because he may have been a bit of a Hippy in his views does not make it credible. You can find much better sources of inspiration and a far better role model.

The NT is not a great place to look for guidance. It is still full of homophobia, sexism and bigoted views. Some parts are as bad as the OT.

“IF” God did want to show us Humans how to live why would he pick to send his begotten son to a remote desert full of illiterate people who have no real values? If he would have sent him to say… Asia where they would have taken all of this down, and made a much better job of it? Asia was far more advanced. They had Language far better than where he was. Education, values and Written language far more advanced than the desert dwellers ever had.
Maybe he never knew? Or… Maybe it never happened.

If you wish to have a imaginary friend I can think of much better ones to pick.

[Hidden]
LVX (297) (@Vovinawol) 9 years ago ago

I’ve brought this up before, that is was written in code and it don’t mean so much from it’s face value. And only the hebrew and greek versions are really worth anything concerning some truths.

[Hidden]
Bryan (104) (@Substratum) 9 years ago ago

Do you suppose it has anything to do with the actual author of the story who created the characters based upon his/her human thinking and imagination regarding the personality of God? Amazing how Gods personality evolved with the evolving and more civilized consciousness of human beings…extraordinary even!

[Hidden]
LVX (297) (@Vovinawol) 9 years ago ago

I feel that it was only colored differently for the change in the populace at the time. And for other reasons that don’t matter to me much. There was alot more truth written before the old testament was drawn up. Although most of it was shared of by word of mouth and was mostly secret. Well, thats how I see it.

[Hidden]
emptyminded (68) (@thoughtless) 9 years ago ago

@justinc123, and I don’t believe what I call God loves any of his children less because they call him by a different name than I do.

im here using a laptop some are out there starving, thats not equality… wake up from your delusions…

[Hidden]
Justin (20) (@justinc123) 9 years ago ago

@dafunks, I like this! It’s very well thought out and you note on some valid points. Of course, we will only be able to agree to certain extent because I do believe in a God and you do not. However, I will just say this. I believe Christ said good things, he told people to love their enemies and their neighbors. He taught people to treat others the way they would like to be treated. He said be honest and kind, be good and be loving. Buddha said these things as well, so did many great people in history. I don’t necessarily care if Christ was a man, a divine being, an alien, a time traveler, or never existed at all. He had good things to say, and even more so in the dead sea scrolls. The point is the man is not important but the ideal is, the Christ consciousness is what needs to be believed in and sought after. Do I believe the Church has become corrupt, hate filled, and greedy? Absofuckinglutely I do, but they do say that if Jesus and Buddha came back today they would either cry or laugh. But thanks for the post friend!

[Hidden]
Justin (20) (@justinc123) 9 years ago ago

@substratum, Refer to above post

[Hidden]
Justin (20) (@justinc123) 9 years ago ago

@thoughtless, I don’t believe that’s Gods fault, I believe that’s our fault. Here is how I see it. The initial Source, God, Primal Energy, Nothingness, whatever it is, whatever yu want to call it, The initial awareness sprang things into existence, everything sort of spider webbed out. You know spider web graphs? How it starts out as one big circle and than more circles branch out? All one, but separated, connected but not. I feel that’s how the Universe works. On the smallest scale we’re all made of the same stuff, the same primal force. We are “Made in the image and likeness of God” not by the way we physically appear but because we have the ability to create our existence. This world, it’s current state, the inequality, the horribly skewed wealth distribution in America alone, the wars, the death, the hungry and the destitute. It was brought about by our own decisions, choices, and efforts. The ability to create also comes with it the ability to destroy. It’s a neutral power, like technology. It’s not the power that is destructive, it is the hands that hold it and mold it.

[Hidden]
emptyminded (68) (@thoughtless) 9 years ago ago

i agree with what your saying but i was just pointing out that, that love of which you speak is false… we always try to personalize god and give him attributes when he transcends all things. love and hate are just human emotions. if you ask me to show you something thats full of love ill point to my dog but i know nothing of the nature of god. so to say he “loves” us would just be an optimistic statement. im a realist so i cannot say if he loves or hate or both…

[Hidden]
Tom Havelock Walsh (0) (@tomhw) 9 years ago ago

The way I understand it, is that the covenant formed through the three persons of the trinity was predestined before the Creation, and due to the biblical fact that Jesus was descended from the tribe of Judah, and for that to be fulfilled the God of the Old Testament had to carefully ensure the survival of the Israelites for the covenant to be fulfilled. Also, the people during the time of the OT were very vicious and crude, and Yahweh had to get the message across in the only way they knew, violence and bloodshed,

[Hidden]
Justin (20) (@justinc123) 9 years ago ago

@thoughtless, I’m also a realist, at least enough to say I could be wrong. And I agree with you to a point. Your right could very well be my wrong and vica versa. Maybe it’s what I hold onto to cope with how alone we really are, but I like to think that “God” was just an awareness that wanted to experience all possible experience, regardless of what we may call right or wrong. And I just like to think that love is the basis of all things, even though I could be utterly wrong.

[Hidden]
Viewing 15 reply threads
load more