Wonderful People of HE, I SERIOUSLY need some guidance here. I’m Markus and here is a challenging situation I’m in. Would appreciate ALL ideas, comments and advice. Fancy yourself a teacher or guide? Please I need help on this. Here is the situation:
My girl is Christian. I am a “univarsalist” apparently. To her, it seems, the bible is the only way. She is relatively open-minded and (god help me she never reads this) have giving me enough reason and patience to believe she is! But her insistence that we cannot trust ourselves and should rather just follow the bible, as well as her getting offended when i say the bible is man written and inspired by god rather than being written by god, indicates she might not be as open minded as she claims.
She believes she understands what the bible is trying to say and last night she was trying to read me some christian book that was going on about how God’s plan is bigger than your own desires and that we as His creations will never get close to understanding what our personal lives were intended for and therefore all we can and have to do is follow the scriptures of the bible. It was all about how we are to obey and not question (or rather that questioning is pointless) and that to try and use intelligence to figure out your life’s meaning or purpose is a waste of time. Because god is our creator, and bigger than us, we just cannot understand him.
This obviously was very irritating to me as this is not the “god” or “love-force” i know.
My point is that i don’t really mind who’s right and who’s wrong, as long as we can all co-exist and settle for the idea that god is love, no matter what point of view you see it from and this has been the common ground for us to agree spiritually and morally upon on a lot of things until now.
So, last night, i questioned all this “you know nothing, God knows everything” reading and it resulted in her (taking a guess here) feeling misunderstood, frustrated and alone.
I NEVER want her to feel that way again, but i cannot pretend to agree with the bible on all things and just follow blindly.
We’ve been together for almost 2 years now and i have moved in with her, earlier this year. I was her idea and it has been good so far. We have a lot of fun together and often share loving peaceful times, but this religion topic, has a way of doing a lot of damage to the trust and understanding we share. If the topic of spirituality could be avoided, i would do so gladly, but being excited about how glorious the universe and its creator is, is something i am passionate about and need to express, i cannot do so. Similarly, i know that she needs to express and be passionate about her spirituality too without me arguing or implying that she is mistakin. She also needs to feel “agreed with”. I wish we could celebrate together instead of avoiding the subject.
Thus far we have had the common ground, that “god is love” and that Jesus was an example of living as love.
But this business of there is only ONE true god and everyone else is mistakin’ and we cannot trust our own revelations if it is not backed by the bible is creating a sticky situation.
I knew full-well that she was a traditional christian when i met her and thought that this “god is love” principle was enough of a bridge for us to live together as spiritual people. Did i make a mistake?
How can i restore and improve mutual trust and understanding? How can i let us share together and celabrate our spirituality? Do i have to take her to church and just eat up the ideas i fully know are limiting concepts?
Please. I need help. I love her to death. But i cannot live without understanding being there for us both.
Sorry bout the essay and putting all this on you. But i hope you will enjoy the challenge more than I.
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@analogfrog, So understand and trust her, and ask her for the same. If you cannot get over your idea of what is right, how can you expect her to? When she shares her beliefs, you must understands that she probably sees the same beauty you do, she just feels there is no reason to question it because God, to her, is to big to understand. Find that mutual middle ground of awe. You chose to question that awe, which she should entertain and delight in with you, and she chooses to follow the word of the bible, which you should read with her and enjoy the beauty she obviously sees in it. Both of you are trying to force each others ideals down each others throats it seems, when you should share your joys with each other, even if you don’t believe in it. And if you can’t let it go, let her go.
@analogfrog, I will just say that believing we as humans cannot trust ourselves and must depend on the Bible, this is a contradiction to what Jesus says;
Jesus was once asked when the kingdom of God would come. The kingdom of God, Jesus replied, is not something people will be able to see and point to. Then came these striking words: “Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.” (Luke 17:21)
Jesus knew the value of the Bible, but he also knew it was worthless without love in the readers heart. I’d dare say a man could fair better with love in heart and no Bible than a man who has the Bible but no love.
@trek79, Jesus also probably never existed as no scholars of the time mention his existence, but lets ignore that fact. Lets also ignore the fact the New Testament was written approximately 200 years after his supposed death and the death of the ‘writers’. Jesus was a contradiction, nothing special in the realm of prophets.
@yaelalonso, Thank you Soooo much. This is the attitude i needed to understand and know there is a way through. I will add that i have tried this before, and it was difficult, but it did work. At least for her mostly. So this will work again and i’m fine with that. Your words were beautiful and are much appreciated! @Ray Butler: Brother thank you too for taking the time to read and reply. I believe similar to what you do and partly so does she. Loving the quote. @trek79 Thanx to you to for being brutal and trying to be realistic. I have researched this much my self and have learnt alot. I tend to agree with you too partly because i like evidence! I have found some scraps of believable evidence though and have learnt about “iconocide”. So i’m willing to believe in that jesus existed even if its just so that my love and i can have some kind of common ground.
@analogfrog, Hope it works out! And on your end, just try to appreciate what she appreciates in it. It must give her an order and path that she may feel lost, lonely, and scared without. Everyone needs a reason to be, that’s hers. And I’m sure if she sees the world as unexplainable and not to be questioned, she must feel the same awe as you dom she just expresses it much differently.
@analogfrog, A friend of mine asked me why I think there are so many denominations of Christianity if they are all supposed to be teaching the same book. I said it is because some Christians believe in tolerance and others don’t, if you follow the Bible strictly then it is not a case of others being intolerant of your beliefs, it is a case of you being intolerant of their beliefs.
It comes down to that; people adapt their beliefs to avoid conflict because they ultimately believe their beliefs are meant to help them avoid conflict.
@yaelalonso, Dude… so insightful. Thank you. @trek79. So true. And it often feels like that when Christians insist all that do not follow the bible are mistaken and lost. I too believe that the “truth” will help us avoid conflict. at the very least war. There will always be differences i guess but i have seen that only serves to cover more ground and reveal more “truth”
Thanx to all! I feel 100% better and more clued up. I downright LOVE HE :) May you all be super-blessed!
@analogfrog, People choose to be offended in order to manipulate the feelings of others. This is not about “The Bible” but it is being used as a symbol for something else going on. She might be planting the seeds for a “grievous error” in order to leave the relationship and have it be your fault. I am not saying that this is the case but arguments and disagreements arise because people want them to arise. You deserve 100% compatibility. You deserve to not be harangued, harassed and pouted at by someone who is not getting their way over something rather esoteric, deeply personal and not really open for discussion.
I think she wants you to move out and this stress is causing lower vibration entities to put weird ideas in her head, but don’t freak out. And you have to try and understand why you are wanting to hold on to something that is clearly not going to work out at all. I can say that because it is not working out now. You should be talking about the relationship and not Jesus/God/religion but alas….love does not take that much work, really.
Ask her if she wants to break up or for you to move out. Then removing yourself from her daily life might calm everything down. Just trying to put a different perspective on it. Ain’t love grand?:)
@analogfrog, For sure, anything that has not faced or stood up to scrutiny is as they say; like a structure built in the sand, the foundations are dubious.
I don’t want to promote the Bible or anything, but from how I understand the character of Simon called Peter, he was a huge sceptic who was constantly challenging things Jesus was saying. In a way he was the embodiment of the old way, a strict Torah Jewish man of Law, Jesus knew if he couldn’t convince Peter then he had to drop what he was saying, but if he could convince Peter then any of the old men of Law who opposed the teaching were being unreasonable.
And Jesus named Peter as the corner stone of the “Church”, which is the most important foundation to the building, because of that very fact, he scrutinised everything and either made it stronger or proved it wasn’t strong enough, and I’m sure there was a lot of stuff which never made the Gospels because Peter tore too many holes in it.
I personally have found some wise stuff in the Bible, but have also found some stuff that makes people judgemental and intolerant, so it has merits and faults, unfortunately die hard believers are often unwilling to face that reality, perhaps due to a fear that admitting some flaws invalidates the good stuff, but I don’t see that as an excuse to either use the Bible to justify conflict nor as an excuse to dismiss the Bible completely.
@planetconcrete, So your solution to difference is avoidance? From what Markus has written they both are holding on to their chosen beliefs, not just her. Love may not take work, but a relationship does. Don’t force your ideas of how he should feel about this person on him, it’s not your place. It is also not the advice he was searching for. And the only grievous error is your wild and accusatory assumptions of this poor girl you know nothing about other than her belief in strict biblical accordance. Leave wild speculation at home.
@yaelalonso, Well Jesus was against institutionalising Theocratic dogma, but the word “Church” had a different meaning back then, it meant the gathering together of people, basically a community, not a hierarchical command structure, and not a physical building perse.
@planetconcrete, I am not familiar with Dan Savage, nor does it matter. That’s some pretty inconsiderate advice and the fact that it’s just copy and pasted regurgitated non sense is even worse. He asked for advice, not a Hallmark post card.
I hear you all. I can sense the truth in your words. I’ll be honest and say it is just downright scary as i have never been so happy in all my life. Except for this one thing. :) Its funny but i really thought i had it sorted there for a moment. Sent her an email while she is at work, explaining how i respect her views and how important it is for us to have freedom to express our views. I said that i’m sorry and that i will create more space for her to live out loud. She sent one back saying that she is sad and scared that our conflicting beliefs will stand in the way of a strong relationship and that there are many things she does not share because she’s afraid of offending me, but that she accepts my apology. How can all this be more important than the good we have shared? Am i learning that without a mutual spiritual understanding a great relationship is IMPOSSIBLE? I’ll move out as soon as possible to give this thing a fighting chance. But damn. This has gone from great to scary way too quick. Time to get my shit together.
@analogfrog, Listen, a relationship is a hardship, but now the two of you are taking steps that most relationships never do, you are being honest, your are moving past obstacles. Continue to foster that mutual appreciation of your ideals and she will open up to you and you to her.
@yaelalonso, what is up with you? That’s the best answer ever. Why you so mean? I said I “think” and I said I was “Just putting a different perspective on it” please tell me your ego is not that embedded in you. Sounds like it. Want some help with that? You are loved.
@analogfrog, Good for you. Go listen to as many Dan Savage episodes as you can. This will get your head on straight. He is a great man who has been helping people for over 30 years deal with stuff like this. love is easy, love is awesome. You deserve REAL AWESOME LOVE. http://www.savagelovecast.com/
@planetconcrete, Of course my ego is embedded in me, I’m human. I don’t tout myself a prophet or mystic that has seen the divine light. I am just a person, so I have feelings, emotions, and thoughts that don’t come from the mind of Dan Savage. Sorry for not being ‘enlightened’. Stop trying to shame people for being flawed.
@yaelalonso, Yeah, a lot of stuff people attribute to Jesus is actually Paul, and he did promote a lot of things that are not exactly Kosher with the teachings of Jesus, but then a lot of the behaviour of Jesus is not exactly Kosher with the teachings of Jesus, so…
But I will say; Theocracy by definition is political and Jesus advocated a Separation of Church and State (Matthew 22:21 and John 18:36), at least I interpret it that way, others no doubt disagree.
@yealalonso, Man, i am touched at your defense. But let these guys say their truth. Yeah i’m not gonna give up so easily, and yeah its worth fighting for. But i get the vibration thing @planetconcrete is talking about since i believe all of reality is a vibrational thing so to speak. I need to get my personal vibration right too. Sometimes i can be real opinionated and arrogantly let the world know what i think. Now its clear to me i have been getting my views across far more than she has and this is causing a blockage. I guess i do it because I’m only human and excitable by the power of the “truth” and can’t always hold it in. I’m maturing away from this excitable nature, and this situation I’m in serves the purpose GREAT. But yeah i KNOW it can get irritating as my sister is worse than me in this. She’s like “racism this and racism that..”. GOD it hurts to be wrong. But I was. I see it now. She has been holding back so much of what she thinks because i get it out first. In some serious pain now. But i got to keep my head clear and find the tools to heal the damage. Once again thanx for all the honesty and care. My best friends could not help as much as all you have. @yealalonso, thanx dude.. i really DO appreciate your sensitivity.