what is the language of thought?

Michael Skywalker (@dd23) 9 years, 7 months ago

Amidst a deep meditative thought, I was struck by a strange yet simple question that I personally have never discussed with anyone. This question that came to me was essentially: What is the language of thought? In order to understand the direction from which I’m coming from I urge you to take a moment and think about something, anything. I think what you will find is that your internal thought process is facilitated by the language you have been taught. i.e. if you were taught english as your native language then you are most likely thinking your thoughts with english words. Take the hypothetical situation in which you were born and never taught a language. Or we could take it a step further and say that you were not taught a formal language because you are the only person on the planet (extreme hypothetical but enforces my point). What do your thoughts sound like then? Imagine what your mind would be like had you never known any formal language or thought process existed.

February 7, 2013 at 9:26 am
Michael Skywalker (6) (@dd23) 9 years, 7 months ago ago

@spiraltouch, now that is what i call food for thought. great stuff! really appreciate it!

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Alex (551) (@hollowinfinity) 9 years, 7 months ago ago

Okay, so in my opinion the brain almost thinks mathematically. Not like calculating equations or anything, but just the idea of math. You start with an association of something else. Say you grunt now and associate it with apple. You’ve created an axiom in your mind to mean apple. Its like in math you have axioms.

These axioms have become quite complex as modern humans. We have fluent language which itself is an intricate network of axioms meaning other things.
The real question is when you break all these axioms down, what is there? In math we would contemplate the question, “What is 1 really? What is it associated to? What does a number really mean?”

According to Godels Incompleteness theorems axioms never end. It’s an infinite cycle. You can never fully explain a system with the system, you need an outside source or axiom. So if our brains are similar, then we could have an infinite potential of axioms in the brain, and who knows what that would do to communication. Perhaps our brains work the other way too, to where underneath our language, there is an infinite amount of different axioms or symbols or ways of thinking. It could be infinite both ways! That’s why I believe as long as we continue to look for answers, there will be more questions.

It all just comes back to how we associate with symbols though. When I see 1, what am I associating it to? 1 is a concept, you can count 1 things, but then within there is actually more than 1, because 1 became an axiom for billions of things. Like a human body. We call it one body, but that number 1 is just an axiom for the billions of different parts it takes to create a body.

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Anonymous (1) (@) 9 years, 7 months ago ago

@danfontaine, that was an interesting response lol

@hollowinfinity, expanding and going off your thought about back to primitive times when expression or thought was symbolic (like using pictures to show concept before the use of words.. a slideshow) but wouldn’t that need a basis of the sense of sight or touch to develop? a being can obtain a form of memory (like i mentioned an infant in the mothers womb) before ever opening its eyes.. isn’t that a form of thought? the fact that a infant can smile or giggle must be proof that there is some form of an emotional thought. a deep perhaps spiritual sensation of the mind creating and connecting.. maybe such a cognitive process in the brain produces a vibration.. or hum when transmitting neurons.. i believe ive heard that animals like elephants communicate through low frequency vibrations.. maybe our primitive mammal self also first “thought” with different frequency of vibrations or waves.. which we learned to project louder and in forms of expression which then lead to penning them down through how they sounded? maybe an infant in the womb can “remember” the sounds of music or voices because the brain recorded the vibrations? could that be possible?

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Anonymous (1) (@) 9 years, 7 months ago ago

i was thinking yesterday, that the universe emits a frequency of sound out of range to the ear.. a hum.. other wise known as “ohm”.. the sound of waves of speeding light. Everything in the universe seems to work off similar vibrations or waves.. brain waves, sound waves, light waves, even the molecular composition of our bodies i believe are always vibrating. the particles moving fast or slow.. also connecting to the “ohm”. i believe that if one would quiet the mind, open the spirit and your senses to the universe, through the sensation you would experience a surrounding peace.. the peace of being connected to the universe through meditation and focusing on ohm.

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Anonymous (46) (@) 9 years, 7 months ago ago

@angiemanochi, In regards of your everlasting peace of the vibration you could try looking deeper into it and ask yourself that what does not vibrate is not there…..

So does space vibrate, is there space, I can observe the distance from to objects, they ressonate and have vibration and energy to be an between them there is space.

But what if the vibration stops, the energy stops, is it still observable..

Set a paper on fire and see the energy consume it, but when the ashes become part of the space there is a moment the energy stops… With this awakening in a way space can become very angry and gives itself a new impuls of energy, it swallows the energy and rides below the vibration to create new vibration.

In a way you could ask yourself, when you find out your own energy and see that you can only interact with you energy and vibration, when will the atoms loos there interest and stop connecting… is that death ))

Not sure what I’m babbling about

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Anonymous (1) (@) 9 years, 7 months ago ago

@spiraltouch,

hmm perhaps yes. life runs off energy.. the movement.. when the energy runs out, life ceases. when brain waves stop, function stops and hence death. when light ends? enters darkness. darkness doesn’t exit but only in the sense that it is the absence of light as cold does not exit as it is only the absence of heat. light and heat are both energy. when the sun grows to be a red giant and uses up all of its energy it will end. the same matter of the universe makes up the matter that are us humans, interconnecting it all, reliant of each others energy. bringing it back to thought.. before the senses become clouded and sidetracked by the social world, i think the thought is a deep connection to the universe of space and time.. the ohm or vibrations through everything that connects one to God..the creator of energy giving life to life itself perhaps..

again, i too am just babbling off thoughts as they come lol hopefully i make a small amount of sence

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Anonymous (46) (@) 9 years, 7 months ago ago

@angiemanochi, yes you do ))

We are mere spectators in Awwhh of what we can do. I like the note of social world for that holds the key in many ways. We try to simulate natural patterns to form our society but somehow we allow our natural law to be taken away and formed in systems.

So achieving such richness where the mind and thought can build upon such peace we are enlisted in the chaos and hatred of people wanting control…

What we can learn from the peace of space is that are no laws…

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Anonymous (1) (@) 9 years, 7 months ago ago

@spiraltouch,

i love that, yes if the clutter of life were removed… many religions practice into this notion, Buddhists, Monks, Hindus, and some Christians.. to different degrees. but i dont believe in religion, just my own personal connection to the universe and therefore God. There is however the Natural Laws of the Universe… i find it amazing.
http://gittefalkenberg.wordpress.com/2010/02/28/the-7-natural-laws-of-the-universe/

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Anonymous (1) (@) 9 years, 7 months ago ago

deep within ourselves we already know the laws of universe.. because we came from it. we are it. whether you see your relationship as we are its children.. or, if you see it as a marriage. a coexistence working together for each.. we wouldn’t want to intentionally hurt our parents or husband/wife.. we wouldn’t ignore them.. why do we ignore this connection and hurt it? hmm its amazing when just typing out thoughts as they come and they lead you to discoveries you didn’t know u knew.. like the universe is speaking to you/through you and you are finally allowing it to be heard/recognized..

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Alex (551) (@hollowinfinity) 9 years, 7 months ago ago

@angiemanochi, About your thought on Ohm, it connects with the language axioms too. Think about what makes a word have meaning. The consonants are fillers, and complete it, but meaning comes from the vowels. You cannot have a word without vowels. OHM is the sound you make when you pronounce all the vowels together. Ohm is the word that represents the source of meaning in our language. I find it pretty interesting.

From the post before, if a baby is giggling or laughing aren’t they still effected and affected by his or her surroundings? Perhaps the association process begins before the baby is even self-aware. Of course, when the person does become self-aware the association process really takes off.

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Alex (551) (@hollowinfinity) 9 years, 7 months ago ago

In fact I know the association process begins before birth. Cells group together and form the axiom of organs. This giant group of cells become known as the heart, and work together as a heart, much like a math equation could be used to express the force of gravity, or something similar. So the association process begins well before birth, I can’t imagine how that would affect how language is developed similar in all humans, but I at least believe they are connected.

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Alex (551) (@hollowinfinity) 9 years, 7 months ago ago

Here’s another question then, when do cells become us? When we are born? When they become organs? When they all come together to create a functioning body?

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Taylor (152) (@taysand) 9 years, 7 months ago ago

@spiraltouch, @hollowinfinity, I know you guys are past the idea of original thoughts being mathematics, but reading that reminded me of a video I saw of the man who can list off an infinite stretch of the numbers of PI (although they only counted like 10 thousand of them or something like that), when they asked him how he solves equations like that so easily he describe the way he sees(or thinks about) them exactly like spiral described. For each digit 0-9 in his head he would see a direction or a simple shape, or a combination of those. Then when he thought about large numbers or equations he would see all of those shapes and directions simultaneously in one big mental structure. Its been awhile since I saw this video but I believe he also saw tons of little sparks and flashes of light when he thought of these things. I’m guessing you’ve already seen this video but if you haven’t you should definitely look for it and check it out.
Anyways, it just makes me really intrigued about the potential that we have for controlling our minds. If we perceived our thoughts the way he does, the possibilities for humanity’s understanding could skyr;ocket in no time! It really gives a huge insight into how our thoughts form and even more how all this knowledge is already inside us buried deeply from the mounds of external information from the social world.

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Anonymous (46) (@) 9 years, 7 months ago ago

@taysand, well not so off on mathematics yet, I deff hold it high, I often asses situation in these orders but mostly use spiral math’s ))

I would love to know where that video came from?

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Taylor (152) (@taysand) 9 years, 7 months ago ago

@spiraltouch, I’ll have to do a little digging because I haven’t seen the video in awhile.. I did a quick google search and kept seeing titles about a Japanese guy who can calculate pi to the 10trillionth digit. I haven’t looked into that one yet but the guy I was thinking of wasn’t Japanese…

By the way, what are spiral maths? Does it have anything to do with the golden ratio?

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HigherThinking (6) (@hefan14) 9 years, 7 months ago ago

I think that most of the thoughts that we would have would be in pictures, like a dog.

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Taylor (152) (@taysand) 9 years, 7 months ago ago

@hefan14, that’s only true for some people though. Like people who are “right brain dominant” are probably way better at thinking in pictures. However I’m not as good with visualizations as other. Personally I do most of my thinking in terms of words, along with pictures for basic concepts like a color or… a brain. But like, with things that have many variations of itself (like trees, or dogs), I’ll usually just stick with the idea of a tree or a dog in general instead of picturing a specific type of tree or dog. But now that I think about it… when I do think in pictures, the pictures I see are usually from the most recent encounter of that thing.

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Anonymous (46) (@) 9 years, 7 months ago ago

@taysand, no search history :-)

Spot on, It is the golden ratio. In love with that spiral, ones you see that thing, you see it everywhere

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Taylor (152) (@taysand) 9 years, 7 months ago ago

@spiraltouch, the first time I really heard about the golden ratio in depth was from the killuminati videos on YouTube haha. But how do you mean by thinking with it? Other than seeing it everywhere you go

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Anonymous (46) (@) 9 years, 7 months ago ago

@taysand, well as these things tend to be concept of minds it is more seeing the way you think and coming up with questions, solutions and just things to do. For me it works best that accepting that everything I do creates an unstoppable possibility of options.

It’s more trying to do everything that must be done to achieve anything must outcome a spiral. From a personal day to day base you could think of hungry+food+motion= satisfaction which in it self contributes to my spiral of energy.

It’s like the post when we talked about 2 sides of a coin, I try to think more about the effect to create. And the best effect is always a happy spiral, it gets larger by giving it energy, sharing it.

As it works the other way around, some spirals make invert direction, like the example of the live of a chicken into the equation of how we can look at it’s spiral.
Or the other way around how the emotion of something can make us feel, giving it energy creates energy, is it happy give it energy, does it create an invert emotion to another person which is not based on this principle…

We agreed on all is energy, vibration, sound… So sound(energy) + Tone(pitch) / emotion of feelings = a nice evening ;-)

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Ivette (2) (@freeborn) 9 years, 7 months ago ago

Images. Images & feelings.

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Taylor (152) (@taysand) 9 years, 7 months ago ago

@spiraltouch, I found that guy! The guy I was talking about who has autism and the special way he sees numbers in his mind. I started reading the 4 hour chef and they mention him early in the book and boom! His name is Daniel Tammet. For the video that explains how he thinks just YouTube his name with Pi after it.

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Egarim (363)C (@egarim) 9 years, 7 months ago ago

@dd23,

Thought has no language, it is merely the movement, formation and creation of ideas/information and connections (between other ideas, ideas and yourself, yourself and others, others and others, etc). Think about it… ultimately whatever language it is you think in or speak in, the words are representations of something else: it’s not the word it’s the idea behind it.

Thoughts cannot be directed communicated sometimes and that is where language comes in. There is always non-verbal communication but even that call for short at times.

Haha “language of thought”… I want some of that bud you’re blazing;)

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jgreen (35) (@andropar) 9 years, 7 months ago ago

i guess without a language you would think in pictures or ideas (you don’t have to know the word apple to know what an apple is, nor to know that you can cut an apple with a knife), words are just a way to communicate.

every sound that every animal on the world produces is simply a way to communicate with its surroundings. dogs wouldn’t bark if they had no humans they could bark to, to “tell” them something.

same for language, if you were the only human on earth you wouldn’t need a language, because you don’t have to share your experiences. if you were blind you would probably think in sensations (like how an apple feels).

more interesting imo: how would you think if you couldn”t use any of your senses?

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