Why Do We Work?

 Ray Butler (@trek79)7 years, 3 months ago

Why do we work? Machines can provide most of what we need and want, there are technologies that put a whole bunch of features into one product, so machines building these products remove the need for most people to work.

The only reason we work is to be able to buy those things, I’d expect basic needs to be a right, otherwise we are saying the penalty for existing is death and you have to be a cog in the machine to earn the right to live.

Okay, that is not so much the case in Australia, but beyond our walls it is, in this country you are demonised for not becoming a cog in the machine, what does that say about us?

If you ask me; we work so we do not have time to think about what I am writing right now, we are too tired to think about it and any spare time we have we use to relax and ultimately unwind from pressure, but thinking about this stuff is the opposite of that.

People have told me to get a job because I can go crazy thinking about things, I’d say the conditioning is that we should work so we don’t think about things, the crazy thing comes not from inside us, it reveals itself in our awareness of what is outside.

March 20, 2014 at 2:35 am
Anonymous (107) (@) 7 years, 3 months ago ago

I’ve had the opportunity to think about this stuff as much as I want without really having pressure financially… and I find that stillness is not enough. Movement and expression is necessary. Self-definition. Otherwise there is basically a disconnected trance state. I realize this is geared more towards the idea of laboring mindlessly, but I think labor is necessary to be fully alive.

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Ray Butler (1,423)M (@trek79) 7 years, 3 months ago ago

Of course; work can be very fulfilling in itself, if it is an expression of yourself or if it provides the means for you to express it becomes a trade-off sacrifice that is worth the expense. Personally I think machines take so many jobs that it should equate to at least basic needs being covered by society, anything in excess of this is what we should really be working for, but that is my opinion.

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Manimal (2,998) (@manimal) 7 years, 3 months ago ago

Should be covered by society?
WHY?

And what good could possibly come of it?

Again, WHY do you think it should be that way?

And what makes people entitled to free stuff in the first place?
That’s right, nothing.

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Ray Butler (1,423)M (@trek79) 7 years, 3 months ago ago

Covered by society because as the opportunities to earn living are in decline because machines are taking a significant portion of work from us. It isn’t a complex philosophy, it is mathematics.

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Manimal (2,998) (@manimal) 7 years, 3 months ago ago

The opportunities to earn a living aren’t declining, they’re increasing. People are just too damn comfortable to look for opportunities, whenever they aren’t getting spoonfed they’re crying that there’s no food for them in this world.

If there’s no need for more labour, there’s no need for more people. If society has no use for them, how are they entitled to society’s privileges?
That’s right, they’re not.

Machines aren’t taking anything from us, they don’t have a will of their own. Whatever they “take” is actually given.

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Ray Butler (1,423)M (@trek79) 7 years, 3 months ago ago

I remember another saying I heard “When I feed the poor they call me a Saint, but when I ask why the poor have no food they call me a Communist” that sounds like the kind of saying you would appreciate.

For a start, finding more ways to waste is not opportunity, it is just waste. Second, society serves people, people do not serve society. And third, semantics.

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Manimal (2,998) (@manimal) 7 years, 2 months ago ago

That’s funny, when I ask why the poor people have no food you call me the opposite.

It is, however, not a matter of why the poor are poor but why the wealthy are wealthy.
A person being poor is no more strange than a bear or a spider being poor. We’re all born with nothing.

“For a start, finding more ways to waste is not opportunity, it is just waste.”

-I wasn’t talking about ways to waste. I was talking about producing value.

You’re the one promoting waste. Because that’s exactly what giving freebies to the squanderers is. Waste. They’re like financial black holes, whatever you give them they’ll quickly waste. That’s why they have nothing.

“society serves people, people do not serve society.”

-Ahh, so naïve.
The owners of society offer security and comfort to the “small people” in exchange for their servitude. The “small people” get an easy ride and don’t have to strain their little brains, and in return they make their owners filthy rich. That’s the deal.
If you don’t keep your end of the bargain, they don’t keep theirs.

Society has nothing to give anyone, no resources of its own. The people in it hold the resources.
If the people on top of society wants to feed the homeless, then they should pay for it themselves instead of taking the funding out of common people’s pockets.

If YOU want to feed the homeless, YOU go do it. Demanding that others do it for you is just fucked up, mate.

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i4c1m2b (70) (@i4CiM2B) 7 years, 3 months ago ago

And what makes people entitled to free stuff in the first place? That is the question, which you correctly answered, Nothing. They deserve free stuff such as food if they are hungry, A safe, clean living space if they are homeless, healthcare if they are sick, Higher education if they are willing to study and improve their lives. It is because they have “nothing” that entitles them to have theses things. Everyone in a society should be entitled to being treated fairly, beginning with a fair wage, one that doesn’t insult them when they are willing to accept a meaningless job to try to have a life worth living. A wage that will pay for a home, a nutritional diet, transportation, fuel and insurance. A wage that gives them the opportunity to “follow their bliss”. or is that just another fallacy like the American dream. People deserve to be treated fairly. Equal opportunity should be a reality, but it is not. Like the American dream, it is bullshit promised by politicians to deceive the uneducated majority for votes. What’s even worse, are politicians and taxpayers that proudly display ribbons and badges that present themselves as one of the virtuous, the hardworking, moral, righteous ones. They would have me believe that they are compassionate, loving, just and fair. However, when it comes to how their tax dollars are spent the attitude is always anything that does not involve giving free stuff to the less fortunate who refuse to be slaves for a minimum wage from a part time job. When you promise your countrymen equal opportunity and deliver resources that do not support any chance of keeping that promise then they are entitled. Was not that the plan all along? A brilliant return to slavery, cloaked in an illusion of wages. The result is the same. In addition, race is not an issue now that anyone can become a slave.

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Manimal (2,998) (@manimal) 7 years, 2 months ago ago

“or is that just another fallacy like the American dream”

-Yep, that’s exactly what it is. Only even more dumbfounded.

“Equal opportunity should be a reality, but it is not.”

-Yes it is. We’re all born with nothing, where we take it from there is up to each individual. Opportunities are plentiful everywhere at every moment, ignoring an opportunity doesn’t mean it didn’t present itself. Taking an opportunity doesn’t mean you’re special or better off than others.

Giving free stuff and help is special treatment, which is by definition the direct opposite of equal opportunity.

” it is bullshit promised by politicians to deceive the uneducated majority for votes.”

-Sure is. And so is this egalitarian/communist fantasy of yours. That’s what politicians do, they lie. They make horrible things look pretty, and they make irrational lunacy seem like it makes sense and could work.

Every pretty little cartoon-pie-in-the-sky ideological concept is just bait, full of hooks. Poorly disguised at that, it takes lots of ignorance to fall for their tricks.

“that present themselves as one of the virtuous, the hardworking, moral, righteous ones.”

-Well, isn’t that what you’re doing too?

“They would have me believe that they are compassionate, loving, just and fair.”

-Just like all manipulators do. Religion, politics, culture, it’s all built on lies. People like a pretty lie, they beg to be told untruth and the shady fuckers happily deliver rivers of bullshit. Such as “free stuff for everyone.”

“the less fortunate who refuse to be slaves for a minimum wage from a part time job.”

-Fortune and misfortune is a myth.
If you refuse to be a slave for minimum wage, but agree to be a slave in exchange for “free stuff” you’re not just deluded but also very dumb.

“When you promise your countrymen equal opportunity and deliver resources that do not support any chance of keeping that promise then they are entitled”

-Unless we’re talking about third-world dictatorships, no such promises are being made.
The politicians technically don’t promise anything, and even if they did it would still be up to the individual to decide if he/she will believe the person making the promise. If you trust an obvious liar it’s your own fault when you get screwed.

“A brilliant return to slavery, cloaked in an illusion of wages.”

-Or a brilliant return to slavery, cloaked in “equality” and “free stuff” and “security.”
What’s the fucking difference? Slavery is slavery.

And in the current system, there is no slavery. Only laziness. If you can’t look further than a newspaper ad for ways to gather resources, then you don’t deserve anything better than the shit they offer.

If you take jobs for granted, and won’t find your own ways in life, always staying on the path that has been paved for you, you’ll only get to where they want you to go. It only leads to one place, and if that’s not where you wanna go you gotta pave your own fucking way.

If you want to fund something, do it. If you want to give someone a freebie, go buy it and give it to them.
Don’t go digging around other people’s pockets for the money.

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i4c1m2b (70) (@i4CiM2B) 7 years, 2 months ago ago

Equal opportunity?

“We’re all born with nothing, where we take it from there is up to each individual.”

We could not possibly survive more than a few days if we were born with nothing. You, me, and everyone else was born with at least one parent and most likely two. That is a very significant something. During the formative years of life, that something has nearly absolute control over “where we take it from there”. The influence these two people have on a child future is enormous. They can manipulate our sense of self worth; self esteem and infect us with limiting beliefs about the possibilities and potential. There may be plenty of opportunities available to children and teenagers but it is often the parents who make the decision for the child by ignoring the opportunity. I am not deluded by egalitarian notions of equality. Spend a week in any inner city overcrowded public school with kids whose parents both work so they can barely afford to pay the cost of living. Then try again to convince yourself that those kids are afforded the same educational opportunities as a kid born with “nothing” parents who happen to be corporate CEO’s, or anyone for that mater, with a six figure income. I have no objection to people achieving whatever success they aspire to. However, believing that all children are given the same opportunities, from preschool to a collage graduation and all the tools and tutoring in between, is simply an unfounded delusion.

I do not recall saying that opportunities were not plentiful. Only that they are not equally available. I also do not consider educational opportunities as giving away “free stuff” or special treatment. Did you whine about the “free Stuff” that you were entitled to and accepted by attending a public school? Where do you think you would be today without the free education you received 12 years in a row. I am assuming you did not receive “special treatment” attending a private school. Being fair is by definition, intrinsic to equal opportunity. For you to translate my simple response into an egalitarian communist fantasy is quite a stretch even for those with a habitual need to label people. If you must label, it is better to use simple derogatory adjectives than complex philosophical ideologies where your knowledge based on dictionary definitions and popular slogans from centuries past. The purpose of my reply was not to present I as a virtuous, hardworking, moral, and righteous egalitarian communist. I did present my opinion on this issue. I really do not care how you chose to label me based on my opinion. These are just your terms to describe someone who prefers that the government take some of the massive amount of money spent on the military industrial bullshit and use it to completely overhaul the countries educational system so that all children are afforded the same educational opportunities as upper class children. How you feel the government should spend money is whatever it is. If it comforts you to think of that money as “your” tax dollars, and if that delusion leads to you believe I’m trying to take money from your pocket to give free stuff to benefit underprivileged children, then I suggest you seek professional help, because like it or not that money is no longer yours and I am free to suggest how I believe it should spent. As you would say, “ If you can’t deal with it, you’re in the wrong universe”.

I guess it would enrage you to unimaginable levels if the government decided to spend 6.4 trillion to revamp the nations freebie educational system, maybe include free preschool for all. Give them all brand new schools and more of them. Of course, you would be in a rage. You have made your position clear and would choose to spend that money to bail out the banks and financial corporations after they got to greedy and fucked up the system It’s estimated that before all is said and done, that figure will be closer to 12 trillion. I am well aware that there will be those who will take advantage of the system, lazy people accepting assistance that they do not really need, people who want to skate through life on a government meal ticket. They are a very small percentage and that does not bother me at all. These people have been slated to live in poverty for generations to come. If these people had all the same educational opportunities over the years, the percentage of people living in poverty would decrease to reflect that. It does not. Take a good look at the distribution of wealth in the USA You get all upset even thinking about having to give a few pennies to a bunch of people living below the poverty line, but you’re OK with giving a couple dollars to increase the fortunes of the very wealthy.

You create you own reality based on what your belief and attitudes. If you doubt that I have taken the time to list the ones you expressed in this single post then ask yourself if you really like what you see

Equal opportunity is a reality because we are all born with nothing. ………………………………………………………..
Where we take it from there is up to each individual……………………………………………………………………………….
Opportunities to earn a living are increasing…………………………………………………………………………………………
Opportunities are plentiful everywhere at every moment………………………………………………………………………..
People are just too damn comfortable to look for opportunities……………………………………………………………….
Ignoring an opportunity doesn’t mean it didn’t present itself…………………………………………………………………..
Taking an opportunity does not mean you are special or better off than others………………………………………….
Giving free stuff and help is special treatment, which is by definition the direct opposite of equal opportunity….
Nothing entitles people to free stuff……………………………………………………………………………………………………
We are all born with nothing……………………………………………………………………………………………………………..
If the people on top of society want to feed the homeless, then they should pay for it themselves…………………
If YOU want to feed the homeless, YOU go do it……………………………………………………………………………………
Demanding that others do it for you is just fucked up……………………………………………………………………………..
If everything is free, there is no longer any incentive to be creative……………………………………………………………
If you take jobs for granted, and won’t find your own ways in life………………………………………………………………
Whenever people are not getting spoon-fed, they are crying that there is no food for them in this world………….
There are hordes and hordes of degenerates, full of diseases and hatred and mental issues all around you……
A person being poor is no stranger than a bear or a spider being poor………………………………………………………
It is, not a matter of why the poor are poor but why the wealthy are wealthy……………………………………………….
Promoting waste that is exactly what giving freebies to the squanderers is………………………………………………..
They are like financial black holes………………………………………………………………………………………………………
They have nothing. Because whatever you give them, they will quickly waste…………………………………………….
If there is no need for more labor, there’s no need for more people…………………………………………………………..
If society has no use for them, they are not entitled to society’s privileges?………………………………………………..
You’re born, then you fight to survive until you lose that fight…………………………………………………………………..
If you can’t look further than a newspaper ad for ways to gather resources, then you don’t deserve anything
Better than the shit they offer…………………………………………………………………………………………………………….
If you refuse to be a slave for minimum wage, but agree to be a slave in exchange for “free stuff” you’re
Deluded and dumb………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….

Human beings have become fucked up and corrupt………………………………………………………………………………
Their lives are too easy, it makes them crazy and stupid…………………………………………………………………………
Humans are no less animals than the other animals………………………………………………………………………………
The “animal brain” is the lion’s share of every human brain……………………………………………………………………..
Humans work because we have to………………………………………………………………………………………………………
Humans work because we’re biologically wired for it,……………………………………………………………………………..
Humans work because we know no other way…………………………………………………………………………………….
Most human constructs, are corrupt and self-destructive…………………………………………………………………………
People fantasize about some “glorious utopia” where they will not have to do shit……………………………………….
People fantasize about some “glorious utopia” where everything is easy…………………………………………………..
That just goes to show how incredibly stupid humans are,……………………………………………………………………..
A situation like that cannot make people happy or anything like that, it actually does the exact opposite…………
It’s nobody’s fault that things are this way, it is the very nature of REALITY………………………………………………..
People grow stronger as a reaction to hardships and challenge……………………………………………………………….
They grow weak and sickly as a reaction to ease and comfort………………………………………………………………….

Society has nothing to give anyone…………………………………………………………………………………………………….
Society has, no resources of its own……………………………………………………………………………………………………
The people in it hold the resources…………………………………………………………………………………………………….
Society is not about creative expression………………………………………………………………………………………………
Society is not yours. You do not make the rules……………………………………………………………………………………
The asshats decide its purpose…………………………………………………………………………………………………………
They make it look like you can bend it to your fancy………………………………………………………………………………
Politicians, they lie…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..
They are professional liars………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..
They make horrible things look pretty………………………………………………………………………………………………….
They make irrational lunacy seem like it makes sense and could work………………………………………………………
The shady fuckers happily deliver rivers of bullshit. Such as “free stuff for everyone.”………………………………….
It takes lots of ignorance to fall for their tricks………………………………………………………………………………………..
Politicians technically do not promise anything……………………………………………………………………………………..
If they did it would still be up to the individual to decide if he/she will believe the person making the promise….
People like a pretty lie……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..
If you trust an obvious liar it’s your own fault when you get screwed…………………………………………………………
People beg to be told untruth……………………………………………………………………………………………………………
Religion, politics, culture, it’s all built on lies…………………………………………………………………………………………

Fortune and misfortune is a myth……………………………………………………………………………………………………….
The owners of society offer security and comfort to the “small people” in exchange for their servitude…………….
The “small people” get an easy ride and do not have to strain their little brains…………………………………………..
In return, they make their owners filthy rich. That’s the deal…………………………………………………………………….
If you don’t keep your end of the bargain, they don’t keep theirs……………………………………………………………..
The strife for a “utopia” is just one of the many stupid, unreasonable impulses…………………………………………..
Machines aren’t taking anything from us………………………………………………………………………………………………
Whatever they “take” is actually given………………………………………………………………………………………………….
Making people weak will only make them even weaker than before…………………………………………………………..
Natural selection has always given us what we need, until people started meddling……………………………………
“Weak links” weed themselves out; it’s the natural order…………………………………………………………………………
Everything dies sooner or later. Deal with it. …………………………………………………………………………………………
Everything dies, life feeds on life. Get over it,……………………………………………………………………………………….
If you see a problem, you are the problem……………………………………………………………………………………………

Most people educate themselves to put food on the table……………………………………………………………………….
Education is for, giving you better chances of getting more resources……………………………………………………….
Life isn’t about creative expression……………………………………………………………………………………………………..
Creative expression is a high privilege…………………………………………………………………………………………………
Creative expression not a birthright…………………………………………………………………………………………………….
Creative expression doesn’t produce much value,…………………………………………………………………………………
Creative expression doesn’t amass any resources,………………………………………………………………………………..
Creative expression doesn’t accomplish anything………………………………………………………………………………….
Creative expression does take up the time and energy that could be used for something that feeds or strengthens…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….
If you want a life of creative expression you gotta work for it…………………………………………………………………….
Creativity is a survival mechanism,………………………………………………………………………………………………………
The whole mind is just a survival mechanism………………………………………………………………………………………..
If that’s not your thing you’re in the wrong universe………………………………………………………………………………..

The suckiness of the jobs is exactly why they are jobs…………………………………………………………………………..
You get someone to do something for you, and you give them something for doing it…………………………………
If the task is just fun and games, you wouldn’t pay someone else to do it…………………………………………………
If you want to get paid for having a good time, you must be off your hinges………………………………………………
Innovation is just offering work-arounds and band-aids for man-made problems………………………………………..
There’s lots of good innovation, but most is rubbish………………………………………………………………………………
Survival will always be the most important thing. Because without it, you’re dead……………………………………….
Safety is an illusion………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….
There will always be things that can kill you…………………………………………………………………………………………
Closing your eyes to the threatening reality won’t make it go away…………………………………………………………..
Closing your eyes to the threatening reality will only increase its chances of getting you……………………………..
It’s good that it is this way. It keeps us going, keeps us growing………………………………………………………………
If you have a problem with that, you have a problem with biology and physics……………………………………………

.

.

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Anonymous (107) (@) 7 years, 3 months ago ago

Survival instinct gives a lot of momentum to creativity though… or maybe just more fear. I don’t know :)

[Hidden]
Ray Butler (1,423)M (@trek79) 7 years, 3 months ago ago

I tend to think spending so much of our time on survival takes away a lot of time we could be spending in creative expression. Innovation stalls because rather than becoming more educated we are focusing on putting food on the table.

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Manimal (2,998) (@manimal) 7 years, 3 months ago ago

Most people who educate themselves do so to put food on the table. That’s what education is for, giving you better chances of getting more resources.

Society isn’t about creative expression, neither is life. Creative expression is a high privilege, not a birthright, if you want a life of creative expression you gotta work for it.
And if everything is free, there is no longer any incentive to be creative. Because creativity is a survival mechanism, the whole mind is just a survival mechanism.

If that’s not your thing you’re in the wrong universe, mate.

[Hidden]
Ray Butler (1,423)M (@trek79) 7 years, 3 months ago ago

I’m not saying everything should be free, definitely not, that would only create mass unsustainable consumerism, if you think I’m that much of an idiot, I must have said something really wrong.

To me society is about sharing each our strengths and weakness in order to make each of us whole, as close to our sustainable potential as possible. That can not be a bad thing in any way because when everyone in society is like that, you have not weak links in the chain.

You are right, life is not about creative expression, and it is a higher privilege that we work for, it is work in itself that may never see a pay check, but it is fulfilling to those who embrace it, and it is generally a sustainable practice.

Obviously not everyone can or will find creative expression fulfilling, but there are plenty of sustainable and fulfilling activities people can indulge that I’m sure they would rather do than sitting in a cubical, or in some other brain-rot job that obviously isn’t doing anything meaningful for the worker or society.

[Hidden]
Manimal (2,998) (@manimal) 7 years, 2 months ago ago

“To me society is about sharing each our strengths and weakness in order to make each of us whole, as close to our sustainable potential as possible.”

-But then again, it’s not your society is it? You don’t make the rules, you’re not the one who decides its purpose.
The asshats do, and they make it look like you can bend it to your fancy… but they are professional liars yknow.

“That can not be a bad thing in any way because when everyone in society is like that, you have not weak links in the chain.”

-Sounds good at face value until you think about it.
People grow stronger as a reaction to hardships and challenge, they grow weak and sickly as a reaction to ease and comfort. Making people weak isn’t gonna make them “strong links”, it will only make them even weaker than before.

Natural selection has always given us what we need. Until people started meddling. “Weak links” weed themselves out, it’s the natural order.
Everything dies sooner or later, buddy. Deal with it.

“and it is generally a sustainable practice.”

-Well, it doesn’t produce much value, doesn’t amass any resources, doesn’t accomplish anything that feeds or strengthens. It does, however, take up the time and energy that could be used for something that does.
So calling it sustainable doesn’t add up.

“fulfilling activities people can indulge”

-Indulgence and hedonism, huh? That sure sounds meaningful and worthy… in what galaxy?

“I’m sure they would rather do than sitting in a cubical, or in some other brain-rot job”

-Haha, the suckiness of the jobs is exactly why they are jobs. You get someone to do something for you, and you give them something for doing it.
If the task is just fun and games, you wouldn’t pay someone else to do it. If you want to get paid for having a good time, you must be off your hinges.

“but the most innovative nations are the ones where survival is not a primary motivator.”

-If the means used for this innovation was readily available in less safe places, I’m sure they would pull it off just as well or maybe even better.

Also, most of this innovation is just offering work-arounds and band-aids for man-made problems. Or further augmenting a downward spiral. Don’t mean to be a downer, just keeping it real. There’s lots of good innovation, but most is rubbish.

“I think instinct is the survival mechanism you are talking about, not the human brain,”

-This sentence, Ray, is nothing short of absolutely hilarious.

It’s the instinct of the human brain. The “animal brain” you mention is the lion’s share of every human brain. Humans are no less animal than the other animals.

“That humans will never arrive at a state where all that survival wiring is redundant?”

-Survival will always be the most important thing. Because without it, you’re dead.
Safety is an illusion, there will always be things that can kill you. When you least expect it. Deal with it.
Closing your eyes to the threatening reality won’t make it go away, it will only increase its chances of getting you.

It’s good that it is this way. It keeps us going, keeps us growing.
Everything dies, life feeds on life. Get over it, stop being such an ego slave.

“Do you think that with our ability to think, we cannot reason around impulse?”

-You don’t see the irony, do you?
This strife for a “utopia” is just one of the many stupid, unreasonable impulses.

So don’t come telling others to reason around impulse, when your very own allegiance is with the impulses.

[Hidden]
Ray Butler (1,423)M (@trek79) 7 years, 2 months ago ago

-But then again, it’s not your society is it? You don’t make the rules, you’re not the one who decides its purpose.
The asshats do, and they make it look like you can bend it to your fancy… but they are professional liars yknow.”

True.

-Sounds good at face value until you think about it.
People grow stronger as a reaction to hardships and challenge, they grow weak and sickly as a reaction to ease and comfort. Making people weak isn’t gonna make them “strong links”, it will only make them even weaker than before.”

Challenge, yes, hardship, I don’t think so, hardship is a state where growth is restricted.

The fact that civilisation is progressively innovating and inventing means that result in ease and comfort, I’d say evolution is naturally taking us there, my ideas have little to do with that.

-Well, it doesn’t produce much value, doesn’t amass any resources, doesn’t accomplish anything that feeds or strengthens. It does, however, take up the time and energy that could be used for something that does.
So calling it sustainable doesn’t add up.”

On the contrary, art and culture are extremely rewarding, all work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.

-Indulgence and hedonism, huh? That sure sounds meaningful and worthy… in what galaxy?”

What people find fulfilment in isn’t for me to judge, it could be base or profound, the question is if it destroys society or the planet in the process.

-Haha, the suckiness of the jobs is exactly why they are jobs. You get someone to do something for you, and you give them something for doing it.
If the task is just fun and games, you wouldn’t pay someone else to do it. If you want to get paid for having a good time, you must be off your hinges.”

Very true, I actually covered this; I said when needs are provided, people work for fulfilment or to acquire what they find fulfilling, work can be worth a trade-off of freedom for wants, but my ultimate point is that trading-off freedom for survival isn’t fulfilling, I’d say people are more inspired to work when they are rewarded for the effort.

-If the means used for this innovation was readily available in less safe places, I’m sure they would pull it off just as well or maybe even better.”

Innovation depends a lot on technical skills, not just need.

Also, most of this innovation is just offering work-arounds and band-aids for man-made problems. Or further augmenting a downward spiral. Don’t mean to be a downer, just keeping it real. There’s lots of good innovation, but most is rubbish.”

Agreed.

It’s the instinct of the human brain. The “animal brain” you mention is the lion’s share of every human brain. Humans are no less animal than the other animals.”

True, but we differ in our ability for advanced conceptual reason.

-Survival will always be the most important thing. Because without it, you’re dead.
Safety is an illusion, there will always be things that can kill you. When you least expect it. Deal with it.
Closing your eyes to the threatening reality won’t make it go away, it will only increase its chances of getting you.”

I’d argue that danger is as much an illusion as safety; you survive ultimately because you can, fear and self-preservation invoke flight or fight adrenalin, which gives somewhat a physical edge, but that is as far as fear goes.

Survival isn’t important, no one or thing ultimately survives, you said it yourself, so being governed by that is ego slavery, what could we achieve without that ruling our lives?

This strife for a “utopia” is just one of the many stupid, unreasonable impulses.”

I’m not a big Utopia person, I don’t think it is possible; to have Paradise you would have to perfectly control everyone so they do not accidentally or deliberately harm others, yet that means freedom does not exist. To me freedom is vital, but so is living in a balance where it is possible and possible to keep indefinitely.

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Ray Butler (1,423)M (@trek79) 7 years, 2 months ago ago

And by freedom I mean self-control, the degrees of self-determination that your discipline over impulse will permit, and the judgement of when indulging impulse is acceptable.

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Manimal (2,998) (@manimal) 7 years, 2 months ago ago

“Challenge, yes, hardship, I don’t think so, hardship is a state where growth is restricted.”

-That’s the point. It’s called hypercompensation.
That’s why you tie down a plant to make it grow thick and sturdy. That’s why bodybuilders lift super heavy weights, to break down the muscles which forces the body to speed up muscle growth.
That’s why the military breaks you down before the real training.
That’s why deprivation causes passion and obsession, and it’s why struggle leads to immense relief.

“On the contrary, art and culture are extremely rewarding, all work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.”

-It doesn’t bring any value that doesn’t also come naturally from productive things. All the while it uses up time and energy that could have been used to build and refine. Another person consuming off humanity and the planet without likely giving anything in return.
Besides, there’s already more than enough art and culture to keep anyone satisfied for multiple lifetimes.

All play and no work makes Jack an unstable, stupid parasite.

“the question is if it destroys society or the planet in the process.”

-It does. Not directly, but the waste of resources (mostly food) that it requires does harm. If a handful of gifted people do it, it’s no harm, and they’ll produce something that has subjective value to a lot of people.
But having hoardes of freeloaders doing “work” that doesn’t deliver quality, it’s a waste of space and a leeching burden.

” I’d say people are more inspired to work when they are rewarded for the effort.”

-Survival isn’t a good enough reward? How can anything be worth more than life itself?

Just goes to show how fucked up and unappreciative people have become.

“Innovation depends a lot on technical skills, not just need.”

-Skills are of course included in the means I mentioned.

“True, but we differ in our ability for advanced conceptual reason.”

-…which most people use to come up with dumbfounded ideologies and call them truth.

“I’d argue that danger is as much an illusion as safety”

-Perception of danger is based on sensory input, analysis and logic, you ‘measure’ how big of a threat something is to you in your current condition, and if it exceeds a certain threshold you see it as dangerous.
Safety on the other hand is just guesswork and jumped conclusions, it’s based on the ABSENCE of evidence (or inability to perceive/understand evidence).

“Survival isn’t important, no one or thing ultimately survives, you said it yourself, so being governed by that is ego slavery, what could we achieve without that ruling our lives?”

-It has nothing to do with the ego. Every living thing strives for survival, most do not have anything even related to ego, not even a spine.

What we could achieve if survival wasn’t a factor? Nothing. Nothing at all whatsoever.
All perceived needs and wants are really rooted in a belief that the object will help us survive.
Humans are in many ways the dumbest animal on the planet, because of this extension called the ego that’s meant to serve the instinct but can so easily be corrupted so that it becomes self-destructive and indefinitely distracted. Seeking things that do not promote survival or reproduction or healthy evolution, avoiding things that do.

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Ray Butler (1,423)M (@trek79) 7 years, 2 months ago ago

This is circular in my opinion, here is something I wrote the other day, you either get it or you decide it doesn’t conform with your view…

[Human perspective seems to naturally apply connotation to everything, this is based on pleasure/pain, ease/difficulty, relevance/irrelevance, joy/sorrow, presence/absence, etc. I respect this but I have also realised that the universe doesn’t inherently contain connotation, it is a factor that arises somewhere between self-awareness and conceptual reason.

So what I do is seek to negate my personal connotative perspective, and this makes it difficult to communicate to people who retain it. Ultimately I find but one of these connotations useful, I live by the idea that “God is the line between the relevant and the irrelevant” that practical function in concert with compassionate consideration determines ideal application.

Nihilism only applies to concepts, the fact that anything exists at all tells us that natural values exist, they just do so free of connotation because connotation is conceptual of origin.

As I said “Justice and injustice reveal themselves” this implies compassion is a natural value, inherent to our observational capacity, existing free of connotation but practical in application for logical or relevant function in our behavioural interactions and interpretation of situations and knowledge.

Basically it is advantageous in the sense that making an enemy of your surroundings can prove consequential to the efficiency of constructive relationships, which are also an inherent value in nature.

Of course this is undermined by hierarchical designation in the social order by the fact that consideration for others may become dependant on mutual gain rather than reinforcement of collective progress…but that goes without saying.]

“What we could achieve if survival wasn’t a factor? Nothing. Nothing at all whatsoever.”

Except absolute sustainability, that can only be achieved 2 ways, 1) by not existing or 2) by doing absolutely as little as possible to exist.

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Ray Butler (1,423)M (@trek79) 7 years, 2 months ago ago

I figure systems fail when they compete with other systems, systems succeed when they compete within themselves.

“A multitude of rulers is not a good thing. Let there be one ruler, one king.”
– Herodotus

Where there is rivalry with other kingdoms, all the resources of the kingdom will serve that rivalry, where there is rivalry within the kingdom, all the resources will serve progress.

Multiple people of wealth will ally with others of wealth dependant on mutual gain, at the cost of all else, so you have compartmentalised interests contrary to the collective progress.

This is pretty strait forward; credibility is not necessarily “elite status” the former comes by earning in contribution, they latter may also but the latter may also exist by exploitation of weakness.

Personally I figure exploiting weakness is often necessary when the subject is not equipped with the faculties required to broach, but when progress IS possible, then exploitation is simply a crime.

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Ray Butler (1,423)M (@trek79) 7 years, 2 months ago ago

So credibility is a type of elite status, but elite status does not automatically translate to credibility. I think this is a key definition hurdle that conservatives and elitists fail to disclose, they would like their status to correlate to credibility.

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Ray Butler (1,423)M (@trek79) 7 years, 2 months ago ago

But wealth does equate to influence; what that status lacks in credibility it can compensate for in alternate methods to promote action.

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Ray Butler (1,423)M (@trek79) 7 years, 3 months ago ago

And innovation doesn’t depend on survival at all, it depends on many things, survival is one of the lesser factors. There was a time when it was a major factor, may still be in certain places, but the most innovative nations are the ones where survival is not a primary motivator.

I think instinct is the survival mechanism you are talking about, not the human brain, the base core animal brain beneath it, and for a long time our brain has served to meet survival needs with its abilities, do you think that is eternally perpetual? That humans will never arrive at a state where all that survival wiring is redundant? Do you think that with our ability to think, we cannot reason around impulse?

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Anonymous (107) (@) 7 years, 3 months ago ago

Creativity provides ethereal abstractions that inspire life, but life itself is made of concrete movements so being without an aim cuts you off from life. The rabbit hole often seem like an aim because it’s bottomless. At some point you have to have one foot in the rabbit hole and one on the ground and that is innovation.

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Manimal (2,998) (@manimal) 7 years, 3 months ago ago

Thank god there’s someone else who notices this.

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Anonymous (107) (@) 7 years, 3 months ago ago

What one finds in stillness is the truth of light and beauty that is the reality of our presence. We don’t need to dwell on it because we are it. Single-focus is necessary to have the peace of deep sleep while keeping the consciousness alert to feel yourself and love it.

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Ray Butler (1,423)M (@trek79) 7 years, 2 months ago ago

I have an outlook where I aim to do things because I can, not because circumstance or ambition demands it of me. I will probably be the only person I know to see things that way, but I credit the clarity of my thoughts and creativity to that perspective. The idea that creativity comes from slavery, that may be true in some cases, not so in others, I cant judge inspiration as it applies to others, but I do not consider the point of this topic to be questioning that, only the practicality of social organisation.

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Anonymous (107) (@) 7 years, 2 months ago ago

Sorry, I was being poetic about how reflecting isn’t enough. Not quite on topic. I did really like the post about doing things because you can. But isn’t that still being a slave, to the potential? We’re a slave to our existence.Can’t you use all these words in different contexts a million times until you can’t speak anymore??? :)

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Ray Butler (1,423)M (@trek79) 7 years, 2 months ago ago

Haha, I don’t know if being a slave to our potential or to existence is a bad thing, I’d consider it a step up to being a slave to fear and desire, I consider fear and desire to be our animal self, and that is certainly part of our identity that isn’t wrong to indulge when it is appropriate and without major consequence, but then existence and potential is our elevated nature, not to say we are above connection to the world but better connected to it.

That is how I see it; the universe was in perfect order, but there was nothing there, then chaos emerged because nothing wasn’t good enough, the whole evolution of the universe is about going from the order of nothingness to the order of everythingness, evolution, from energy to mind, is just the chaos in between that makes it possible.

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Baxter (16) (@Baxter) 7 years, 3 months ago ago

I concur with what your saying since I’ve actually experienced what you just stated .
Back 6 yrs ago I owned my own business that consumed my life .
I had a fine house in a great neigborhood and had 3 cars just for my use in my driveway .
Why I gave it all up is another story but basically even though I was living the subconscious taught American dream,I was ”miserable” …….
So I had some money put away ,I sold everything and embarked on a unknown journey .
I relocated in the country just for the experience of chg of geographic’s,and took some time off.
All the sudden I had this awaking of society I never noticed or had not since I was very young .
I was to ”busy” to pay attention to what was right in front of my eyes .
I guess best put humanity is in chaos .
Everyone running around like chickens without heads revolving around each other ,no longer interacting interpersonal . Technology though wonderful had speeded up a society to where people no longer needed to directly depend on one another. I woke up to a world of no personal boundaries ,lack of integrity and social morals . Basically it appeared ever man for himself out there on the surface . I kind of crashed sort of speak but began to sort it all out for myself ,but I ate up most of my money working through this transformation within myself.
6 yrs later I’m working for myself ,by myself as a residential tradesman’s ,I don’t make a lot of money but enough to pay the bills . I really only take on enough work to pay my bills. I live in a small little house with my dog and cat ,kind of what some may perceive as a crappy area of the city (the hood) .I like it because it full of color and flavors many different types of people live in the area from middle class inner city pioneers to the very poor.
There no keeping up with the Jone’s in this neighborhood , somehow I like that concept .
What’s become important to me is ‘TIME’ my time .
I myself truely learning to live the ‘Now’ today this hour etc ,where most people are on there electronic devices living something in the future . I actually turn my phone off for long periods of time to help to achive this .
I’m slowly becoming a consious thinker and when I’m in the now find I’m generally a pretty happy person at peace person .
So not working as much and having time to think has changed my life and imo for the better.
3 things have happen I stopped projecting and reflecting negitively with my subconsious taught mind which in turn for the first time in my life truely become without FEAR and ANIEXTY . All the sudden everything I needed just seem to be there ,no worries ,no stress just there on a silver platter waiting for me.

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Anonymous (2) (@) 7 years, 3 months ago ago

we work because of the fear. would you really work if you could do whatever you wanted and still survive?

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travisbickle (4) (@travisbickle) 7 years, 3 months ago ago

We work because work gives us an identity and purpose. Work is not part of some grand conspiracy to keep people down. Even enlightened monks garden, or complete tasks to keep the mind sharp or serve a role in a community.

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Manimal (2,998) (@manimal) 7 years, 3 months ago ago

“machines building these products remove the need for most people to work.”

-Not true. Robotics aren’t that developed yet, not to the point where you can get machines to do most of the tasks with the same quality as a human without costing multiple fortunes.

“I’d expect basic needs to be a right, otherwise we are saying the penalty for existing is death”

-Ehh what?
Penalty for existing? What the fuck is that all about?
Here’s how the world works: You’re born, then you fight to survive until you lose that fight. If you have a problem with that, you have a problem with biology and physics and you’re in the wrong universe.

It’s nobody’s fault that things are this way, it’s the very nature of REALITY. It’s not bad, it’s just how it is, if you see a problem you are the problem.

“the crazy thing comes not from inside us, it reveals itself in our awareness of what is outside.”

-It does come from within. It’s a human construct. And just like most human constructs, it is corrupt and self-destructive.

Humans work because we have to. Not because some overlord tells us to, but because we’re biologically wired for it, we know no other way.
People fantasise about some “glorious utopia” where they won’t have to do shit, where everything is easy, and blah blah blah… that just goes to show how incredibly stupid humans are, because a situation like that cannot make people happy or anything like that, it actually does the exact opposite.

Look around you. Just hordes and hordes of degenerates, full of diseases and hatred and mental issues. All because their lives are too easy, it makes them crazy and stupid.

What’s the deal with this crazy sense of entitlement? There is no logic and nothing real to support or encourage such an attitude or such ideals, only fucked up human constructs.

Seeing how fucked up and corrupt the human beings have become almost makes one wish for apocalypse.

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YHVH (462) (@spaceghost) 7 years, 3 months ago ago

High hopes for humanity eh?

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Manimal (2,998) (@manimal) 7 years, 3 months ago ago

As always. It’s not like I’ve seen this development and its devastating consequences on dozens of other planets or anything…

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YHVH (462) (@spaceghost) 7 years, 3 months ago ago

Been there done that kinda thing for ya?

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Ray Butler (1,423)M (@trek79) 7 years, 3 months ago ago

You are right…100 years ago.

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Ray Butler (1,423)M (@trek79) 7 years, 3 months ago ago

Robotics is developed enough, the only reason it isn’t more used is to keep humans in jobs, society can automate a hell of a lot more than we currently have, and it will only increase. I have seen robotics perform complex surgery, and it is true that I don’t know the cost of mass producing these machines, but that is yet another thing that our situation is holding us back from.

Again I am not saying people should not work, as I said to Anjelica; we would do meaningful work or work to gain meaningful things, sacrifice a portion of our freedom to acquire our wants, but sacrificing our freedom to acquire needs is little more than slavery at this point in technological progress.

I admire you Manimal for your tenacity, but you have no idea what I’m talking about, you make your argument sound brilliant and people respect you for that, including myself, but you are wrong, society shouldn’t be like this anymore, it is bygone, if you are really smart you can figure out why, it is obvious.

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Anonymous (175) (@) 7 years, 3 months ago ago

eh? How? Tell me which robot can conceive, design and build the London Crosslink project? Or search for the missing Malaysia airline?

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Ray Butler (1,423)M (@trek79) 7 years, 3 months ago ago

All I really see from you on this comment is semantics; you are dissecting my choice of words in an attempt to undermine the point they form, but you have not successfully addressed the point itself.

Entitlement is what the world is based on, so that is no point, it is insane that people are trying to demonise the very thing that put them where they are. Everything we do is either an entitlement granted or an entitlement we take. I remember hearing a saying “We do not inherit the world from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children” that is the kind of point I agree with, and you can think about what it means to entitlement. I am actually less of a supporter of entitlement than you think, less than most people I have ever seen, so insulting me with that accusation shows just how much you have missed my point.

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YHVH (462) (@spaceghost) 7 years, 3 months ago ago

From my experience with robots, which is about 6 months as a production associate (temp) at a car part manufacturer, I can say that robotics are pretty advanced. They still have a long way to go though. Their programming has to be perfect and even then they still malfunction, and can take hours to fix. Not to mention all the engineers and maintenance guys I met were condescending assholes. They’re probably only like that because the robots are so annoying to work with. I don’t think robotics are the way to go. They use up a lot of energy also.

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Ray Butler (1,423)M (@trek79) 7 years, 3 months ago ago

Solid point, I didn’t consider energy efficiency with machines, that is certainly an area we need sustainability…at least until society gets over its fossil fuel addiction, yet another factor our situation is holding us back on. Progress doesn’t only come in robotics, we are looking at a diverse range of technologies these days.

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Josh (213) (@reinvented2012) 7 years, 3 months ago ago

Do you think that there havent been societies that have achieved a utopian type lifestyle? That doesnt mean that nobody works, but people have not been oppressed, they work together, and everyone has a job to chip in. But because of the way they are designed people voluntarily participate.

There are plenty of people who want to do jobs that others are doing but not enjoying, but the person who would actually enjoy it doesnt get the opportunity because of education, or race, or location or any other number of reasons. If we redesigned the system to give everyone true equal opportunity and gave everyone the option to learn a skill they wanted we would probably increase productivity, creativity and quality of life for all.

With over 7billion people we have more than enough people to take on the necessary jobs for society to run, however this is at the expense of certain luxuries, thats for sure. But I think overall if we were to go back to organized communal living where things are simple people would be much happier, less stressed, healthier and so much more. Thats my idea of a utopian society, I dont think there are many people who really think nobody will have to work, its just not the type of work we do today (most of us), its a choice, something you do because you enjoy it. That is an option now, but the way things are people take jobs to make money and feed themselves and families because there is no other option. Just because its a free to choose society doesnt necessarily mean people are able to and thats a product of the current system.

I dont know if youre going to agree or not, but I hope I was clear in my description. If you really think we just have to accept that there is immense amounts of waste, pollution, hunger, war, corruption, crime then maybe the problem is with you. Its the pessimist attitude that ensures we will never change for the better. Peace.

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Ray Butler (1,423)M (@trek79) 7 years, 2 months ago ago

For a perfect world, people cannot deliberately or accidentally hurt others, this would mean everyone would have to be absolutely controlled, and in that case the perfect world wouldn’t be perfect because freedom would not exist.

The ultimate ideal is that freedom exists, and so the occurrence of harms would have to be part of that, I suppose just the ideal is that people wouldn’t harm deliberately, but that would take some doing.

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Anonymous (175) (@) 7 years, 3 months ago ago

I’d agree, bar the misanthropy.

Ever since Paleolithic times, well EVERY species has to expend effort to survive. Tigers kill deer, lions kill antelope, horses eat grass, etc. it is the way of ALL known life.

As for life too easy, well yeah..this is why you live in an advanced economy, most likely a liberal democracy and wouldn’t give it up to live in an autocracy with no rights, eh?

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i4c1m2b (70) (@i4CiM2B) 7 years, 2 months ago ago

Humans are motivated by more than just surviving. Tigers and lions only kill when they need to satisfy their hunger. They don’t kill for sport or because they’re greedy. Humans, however, are capable of committing atrocities to other humans that have nothing to do with their survival.

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Josh (213) (@reinvented2012) 7 years, 3 months ago ago

As I was reading the first paragraph I was thinking the same thing as you. We could easily replace people with machines but then what. It makes us look back because we have a lot of unemployed people. Look bad to economists and maybe other countries that is, but fuck them who cares. Well the powerful thugs who run the system care. That brings me to what you said, they want us to stay busy, keep our heads down, work for all the “cool” things we want (that they make us think we need through clever advertising). They dont want well informed, well educated people that are capable of critical thinking (George Carlin said it best, look him up, its probably the 1st video of his on youtube).

A picture I often see of someone in an anonymous mask states “the system isnt broken, it was designed this way”. Its all a plan, its been designed to keep us uninformed and docile, complacent and comfortable. Well the worse things get around the world, the more people are realizing were being fucked in the ass, and here in the USA the cock is Red, White and Blue. (another joke from George Carlin)

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josephm (772) (@josephm) 7 years, 3 months ago ago

point a point b point a point b point a point b point a with consistency

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