Hello, I’m 20 years old and I can’t help but to think that there has to be something better than what society (people under government) gives us. What I mean is yes we can BUY food and BUY Water and BUY shelter but why should we have to work then get paid then get the resources why not work then resource short and simple. Honestly I’ve seen what money really is in the past two years. It went from that promising green piece of paper that can get me anything to an imaginary valued piece of material that causes dread and discomfort. I hate the fact that my family time is cut short because of “work” (slavery) or the I can’t even be accepted by a certain group of people because of financial status. I just really think it’s so stupid that we base all our life needs on little pieces of paper. Food should be free water should be free hell shelter can be and should be built for free dammit Jim I’m a human being not a machine I need those things to live but I can’t simply have them by my own efforts I depend on a government to give me “money” it’s stupid but maybe I’m just an arrogant child who doesn’t want to grow up I don’t know but please tell me there is something better for people to live for besides a crappy career that isn’t even promised to us in the first place….
@Man-of-the-Future, I always refer to what Alan Watts said: Figure out what you would want to do with your life if money were no object. Then do that. Somebody is interested in everything. And anything you’re interested in, you’ll find others who are interested in it as well. So figure it out, stick with it, and become a master of it.
Like it or not, this is the way the world works right now. So if you want to take advantage of it, rather than let it take advantage of you, it will require hard work and dedication, and a sense of what you want to do. Without those things, you will feel as if life is always unfair.
@Man-of-the-Future, “Food should be free water should be free hell shelter can be and should be built for free dammit Jim I’m a human being”
I totally agree. And I loved your Star Trek reference haha
@chodebalm, the Alan Watts thing is great advice in theory, but it’s hard to put into practice. By the time I heard it, childhood had long since been over. Which is when you’re supposed to get good enough at something so that by the time your 20s roll around you are a master, and don’t have to waste your life in shitty jobs. What about those of us who figure out what we’d do if money were no object, but it’s too late? I used to think that there was no hope of attaining mastery at something one starts in their 20s because of a lack of natural talent or because we no longer grow neurons as fast as children, but now I think there is little hope for attaining mastery at something started in the 20s because of a lack of time. When are you going to get good at something when you have to do some bullshit job for 8-10+ hours a day, at least 5 days week, coming home feeling like a chewed up piece of gum???? I know what I’d do if money were no object but I found out about it so late that I’m not good enough at those things to make money, but I need to make money. Am I doomed to spend the rest of my life doing things I don’t care about at best and hate at worst, and never being able to get good at the things that really matter to me because I just didn’t find out about this early enough? Is life just going to be a bitch, and then death? This notion has been driving me insane lately. I’m having a hard time seeing any future that doesn’t involve me being miserable for the rest of my life.
@Man-of-the-Future, If you are looking for something better, it wouldn’t be anything you described. It won’t be material wealth.
Too bad people will always want way more than they need to survive, but the catch is we are generations raised on that mind set, so is it our fault? We we’re born fully dependent on government services after all. Gun to your head or pay the price. Just learn to weave through the sickness, play the mind game.
Yes, you are just an arrogant child who doesn’t want to grow up. Growing up would mean actually taking responsibility for your life rather than complaining and blaming. You don’t have to have a career and you don’t have to work much to support yourself. The desire for status is yours, not someone’s else’s. No one is forcing you to own a TV, or a car or more than two sets of clothes, or to live in more than 300-400 square feet.
@HowardHolmes, yup but not much you can do when you are born into these ways indoctrination is sort of a unit of force as well as the fact that if i leave society now i could never deal because im used to my Thirst for “social ties” so either way im screwed stuck between a rock and a hard place literally lol nature being the rock and living under this government being a hard place and as far as a career goes i dont want one never had a passion nor a skill that ive stuck with whos fault is that most will say my own but then id ask whos responsible for making me have the attitude towards life that i have? And complaining and blaming is something every one does has nothing to do with growing up how do you expect me to be responsible for my actions when im a slave to my enviroment as As well As my genetics a child and dont choose my outcomes for a large portion of my maturing stages not saying i cant change but its hard and also i dont want a career i just want to live a life with the people i love and thats it screw this lame set up way of life and screw who ever settles to live in it even me
@Man-of-the-Future, I understand the dilemma. I’m an old man, living on savings. It is too easy for me to sit here and think of what I might have done differently. I can only say that you fear that devoting you life to work and status is legitimate. I did it. Looking back, it still appears to have been the wrong choice. But choices even for me now are very difficult. I have a life of total ease now, but fear that I am missing something by not giving my money away and growing my own food rather than sitting in an easy chair. Check out workaway.info. I’ve not tried it, but one can get room and board for probably 3 hours a day work and live anywhere in the world. Even in this country, I am fairly sure one could live well working less than 20 hours per week. I consider that 20 hours a waste if it is not doing something that is fun. But I am also guessing it could be fun. I was an accountant. I enjoyed balancing books, etc. I know I could get $100 today doing books if I chose to. I could live fine on 10,000 per year so that is 100 hours of work or about 2 hours per week. Even if I could only get $50 per hour that is only 4-5 hours per week. That sounds like a good life from where I sit.
At any rate, I am sure the mind can care for us and provide all we need if we allow it freedom to do so….freedom from care and confusion and pressure and wants and deadlines and obligations. I am sitting right now in the middle of a “vacation” to Michigan. My friend and I are checking airfares to quit the vacation early and go home because we find it too stressful to drive from place to place and do this and there. There is just no time to think, to sit, to do nothing. DOING is maddening.
@Man-of-the-Future, Why should food and shelter be free? Every other animal has to work for it, why shouldn’t we? You do understand that the government isn’t some endless pit of money, right? Sure capitalism is flawed but it is pretty much the best situation available at the moment. Most other systems don’t allow for advancement nearly as fast as capitalism. Just look how fast things have accelerated since it began. Bottom line; if you don’t like the system go into the woods and fend for yourself, or try change it, do anything just don’t complain and expect things.
“whos responsible for making me have the attitude towards life that i have?” You.
@chekovchameleon, “Why should food and shelter be free? Every other animal has to work for it, why shouldn’t we?”
Because in this day and age, life should be about more than having the first 18 years of your life be happy (if you are lucky), followed by the rest of your life consisting of constant suffering and eventual death. Why? Because it’s technologically possible.
I can’t stand the idea that once childhood is over, all there is to life is “life’s a bitch, then you die”. It’s so depressing.
@theskafish, If you carry that perspective than it will be that way. How could it be free? Food and construction are giant industries if you just wipe them out then it would cause more hardship than good. How do the producers get compensated, or do they just do all the work while we relax?
@chekovchameleon, I was thinking more along the lines of making things “right” the first time, like building things to last instead of planned obsolescence. Building things to be the best they can be and last as long as possible. We will have to work initially, but look at all the money that is spent on competition and war. I wish we’d focus that same amount of energy into advancing into the next age, by automating virtually all jobs. That’s the direction things are heading in anyway, and it makes more sense than trying to burn the candle at both ends like society currently does, where more jobs are being automated, yet it is still demanded of people to get jobs, which are becoming ever fewer.
I maintain that since we get, in all likelihood, one and only one shot at existence, so therefore it should be more than misery.
There should be a “war on work”.
@theskafish, I agree. But it is not the way it is now. It is most likely the way it will be in the future, but this kind of change takes time but it will come. Just look at how much better things are now than they were say a hundred or 2 hundred years ago. People have to learn from their experiences, they cannot be told.
It is pointless though, in the meantime, to expect things to be given to you with no contribution. People will always have to work, the nature of what it entails will just change over time. Even in an automated system people still need to make sure everything runs smoothly. But if food and shelter were free most people wouldn’t contribute because they would be off enjoying themselves. So then the question is raised why should someone bother providing you with food and shelter if you don’t contribute?
@chekovchameleon, “So then the question is raised why should someone bother providing you with food and shelter if you don’t contribute?”
Because at a certain point it’s not bothering anymore. If we develop techniques to farm food at such an efficiency rate that everyone can be fed with ease, then there is no problem. If we can produce so much Crop X that there is a huge surplus, why destroy the surplus? The only reason I can see would be to artificially maintain scarcity where it need not be so, which ultimately means so that the producer can keep having everyone else by the balls. I would argue that contribution becomes less of a requirement and more of a voluntary choice as we move from scarcity to abundance. Earning one’s keep is based on the idea that there is not enough to go around, and is slightly more civilized than simply fighting for what exists.
“But if food and shelter were free most people wouldn’t contribute because they would be off enjoying themselves.”
Exactly. I don’t see anything wrong with this either, because we have forever to be dead, but only a relatively short time to create remarkable lives.
Ooh, I disagree with almost everything you said, this is going to be fun :b
“What I mean is yes we can BUY food and BUY Water and BUY shelter but why should we have to work then get paid then get the resources why not work then resource short and simple.”
1. You don’t ‘have to’ anything.
2. You seem to have it all wrong. If you were rewarded for your work with resources instead of money, everything would be more complicated. Just to give you an example, imagine if you’re working for me and all I have besides money is apples. Well then your life is going to be really hard, trying to get all your nutritional needs met from just apples and building shelter with the seeds and stems.
“Honestly I’ve seen what money really is in the past two years. It went from that promising green piece of paper that can get me anything to an imaginary valued piece of material that causes dread and discomfort.”
Money is just money, it can’t cause you anything. You can find it liberating or restraining, but
that has nothing to do with money and all to do with how you perceive it. So no, you haven’t ‘really seen what money really is’, you just went on from one projection to another.
“I hate the fact that my family time is cut short because of “work” (slavery) or the I can’t even be accepted by a certain group of people because of financial status.”
Then stop working. No one’s forcing you. Go hunt and gather and build what you need instead. But please, stop expecting other people to hand their work down to you for nothing. And while you’re at it, stop trying to get accepted by morons, since that will only turn you into a moron.
“I just really think it’s so stupid that we base all our life needs on little pieces of paper.”
“Food should be free water should be free hell shelter can be and should be built for free dammit Jim I’m a human being not a machine I need those things to live but I can’t simply have them by my own efforts I depend on a government to give me “money”…”
Food and water ARE free: Rivers and springs don’t charge for you to drink from them; apple trees don’t ask for your credit card when you pick up apples and eat them. Shelter can be built (with logs or something) or found (as is the case with caves).
Water from the faucet and food from the supermarket aren’t free, and why the fuck should they be? Someone else worked their ass off to get the resources you need from where they came from to your vicinity and they should be rewarded for that.
And if you don’t want to think of it in terms of what someone deserves, think of it like this: People are charging you not for the water, but for what it took them to get the water to you; in the same way, you are paying so that you don’t have to do the work yourself.
It’s all fair because, in order to get something, you have to pay for it with money that you earned by giving something. And it’s also fair because no one is forcing you to use money anyway. I know people who live in the city and have a car and everything and don’t use money at all. The problem is that they spend most of their time trying to find the right people to trade their things or services with for what they want in return.
“…career that isn’t even promised to us in the first place…”
Why the fuck should anyone promise you a career?? You have to get something straight: you are entitled to NOTHING. LIFE DOESN’T OWE YOU SHIT and whining won’t get you shit either.
Now pull yourself together and start going after what you want.
@theskafish, I understand what you are saying. But in that system you speak off there would still be contributors, so why should one contribute while another does not? I am also perfectly happy to not have to work but in a perfect world I think that everyone would contribute, not for the sake of profits or to have anybody by the balls but for the betterment of each individual and society on a whole.
@chekovchameleon, haha. you have answered your own question, I believe. Some people, like myself, don’t enjoy contributing. That is to say, we don’t find fulfillment in any activity that contributes to society, to us, it is more closely related to pain than pleasure. But, there are lots of other people who genuinely do enjoy contributing. People genuinely enjoy things like flying commercial planes or teaching kids or doing science and math, and given a choice between doing those things and not doing them, they would choose to do them anyway. I think a start will be when we can automate enough jobs that the only jobs left for people to do are ones that people would want to do anyway.
@theskafish, Yes they enjoy doing them currently as a job but why would anybody work their ass off so you don’t have to do something you don’t enjoy. How long do you think people would continue going to work when nobody else was. Why should you reap the benefits of somebody else’s labour when nobody reaps the benefits of your’s? In doing this you become the monster you set out to destroy.
Most people don’t like to work. Even those who enjoy their job are dissatisfied with going into work.
@vasco, YEAH!!!!!!!!! but also no FOOD WATER AND SHELTER SHOULD ALL BE FREE OF CHARGE and it should given to us as an option from a tender age rather we want to live this boring as hell life (they really honestly force on you) or a life wher you can be a hunter and gatherer instead of expecting me (after living in a society that i have been indoctrinated into for the majority of my life) to all of a sudden say hey let me go into the wild where i was taught all my life was too hostile and so i live with that meandering thought in my head thus its close to impossible to live in such conditions without prior knowledge which i have been taught is unneeded because if i go to college and graduate i can get a good job which can help me sustain a living which like i said before is not promised so its a gamble and HELL YEAH i will keep complaining but that don’t mean i aint going to do nothing i will fight as much as i can until i see a change but until that is an option i will complain and build up rage that will be used to make a change say whatever you want but thisis me a person who sees the problems and refuses to just let them take me over lastly the reason i complain is the fact that if i do anything else i will be seen as a criminal or a lunatic not that i care but there really aint much a city born man can do but complain that or take on the harshness of the wilderness either way i see it man im fucked lol life doesnt play out so well for us alll
The Man Who Quit Money: I just bought this book through Amazon and got it used for $4 (it’s in brand new condition) Give it a look, may offer insight into thoughts in this thread.
@Man-of-the-Future, What’s the difference? Instead of working and getting money and the freedom to chose the resources you want, you work and get resources. Money has no hold over you.
“I just really think it’s so stupid that we base all our life needs on little pieces of paper.”
Agreed. But why should that be a basis for getting rid of money? We are the problem, not money.
This is a typical human reaction; people put value on objects/ideas, value inflates, people act like idiots and do idiotic things based on presupposed value, people don’t like what they themselves have caused, people curse/damn/outlaw/blame original object/idea.
The system is not at fault. The system is solid. It is peoples moronic interaction and evaluation of the system that is at fault.
@rickyferdon, the man who quit money…. to sell his book for $4 on amazon :P
@theskafish, I’m not so sure that you really want to sit on your ass all day and do nothing while other people take care of you. The way of the world right now is pretty fucked up. If you lived in a community where everyone took part in building, gardening, fishing, cooking.. you’d want to join in the fun. We’re led to believe that this stuff is difficult and stressful, that you can’t have fun and enjoy living. And living by definition for every animal out there is finding food, building shelter and doing whatever else you so desire. Naturally you would be more than happy to partake in these activities, I’m sure of it.
@mitch, it’s not that i’d sit on my ass and do nothing, watching TV and eating Cheetos if we lived in a leisure society. i’d read a lot and work on the skills that i find interesting. I see what you mean, but at the same time, when I think of things that I find interesting, food preparation, the construction of homes, and other such things aren’t on the list. I’m just not all that curious about them, because they are hum-drum, ordinary type things.
That’s my problem with society. It conditions a person to be a worker, not a somebody. It discourages you from even trying to stand out. As it is now, one is expected to spend their whole life serving others, living for others – before you know it, the ride is over and you haven’t done anything for yourself, you haven’t become the one you’ve been dreaming about because you gave other people the lion’s share of your time and energy.