Your conciousness won't be there to regret after you die

Jinay Shah (@Jinay-Shah) 7 years, 8 months ago

I don’t fear death. If i were to die just now i would go for it because after dying my conciosuness won’t be present for regretting the action i just did.
your death is inevitable. what do you think?

March 5, 2014 at 9:47 am
Ray Butler (1,423)M (@trek79) 7 years, 8 months ago ago

Yes, this is how I see it, and contrary to popular belief, it is in the Bible, which says “The living are aware that they will die, but the dead are aware of nothing at all”, I’m not trying to promote the Bible, I just like to point that out to people ;)

I kinda like a theory call Eternal Recurrence, postulated by Carl Jung, and others, which states that if the universe is infinite, then there exists infinite opportunity for your consciousness to re-emerge into awareness, although it would not retain the chemical memory of your current brain. If you are unaware of everything, it would include the passage of time, so death would be irrelevant as the individual perceives it, it would simply be interpreted in a way similar to losing your memory.

In the infinite universe, you spend an infinite amount of time both existing and not existing, but since you do not perceive the infinite time in non-existence, technically you will only really exist, and that would be infinite, we are immortal, we just don’t know it because we don’t really remember it.

That is just a theory I like to contemplate, I don’t think it will really matter, because I also tend to agree that death will be a state of unawareness and if we come back or not wont matter because, as you say, we will not be able to regret it nor worry about it in that state.

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Ray Butler (1,423)M (@trek79) 7 years, 8 months ago ago

Yes, this is how I see it, and contrary to popular belief, it is in the Bible, which says “The living are aware that they will die, but the dead are aware of nothing at all”, I’m not trying to promote the Bible, I just like to point that out to people ;)

I kinda like a theory call Eternal Recurrence, postulated by Carl Jung, and others, which states that if the universe is infinite, then there exists infinite opportunity for your consciousness to re-emerge into awareness, although it would not retain the chemical memory of your current brain. If you are unaware of everything, it would include the passage of time, so death would be irrelevant as the individual perceives it, it would simply be interpreted in a way similar to losing your memory.

In the infinite universe, you spend an infinite amount of time both existing and not existing, but since you do not perceive the infinite time in non-existence, technically you will only really exist, and that would be infinite, we are immortal, we just don’t know it because we don’t really remember it.

That is just a theory I like to contemplate, I don’t think it will really matter, because I also tend to agree that death will be a state of unawareness and if we come back or not wont matter because, as you say, we will not be able to regret it nor worry about it in that state.

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LSDismyGOD (63) (@LSDlover) 7 years, 8 months ago ago

same thing famous Philosopher Epicurus had said ” Death does not concern us, because as long as we exist, death is not here. And when it does come, we no longer exist. ”
Epicurus
but since all living beings and us have basic instinct of Self preservation, fear of Death is quite natural & necessary for our survival.

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Ray Butler (1,423)M (@trek79) 7 years, 8 months ago ago

It is interesting to say “fear of death is quite natural and necessary for our survival” humans are the only animal with a real awareness of what death is, self preservation is an instinctive response, not an idea. You can walk into a flock of pigeons with no intent to hurt any but they will fly away, and they fly away for the exact same reason they would fly away from a cat, self preservation.

So they are not really afraid of death, just evolution has resulted in the reflex, the ancestors that flew lived and had babies while the ancestors that didn’t died and the genetic flaw that decided they don’t need to fly disappeared from their species.

Animals have no understanding or need to understand mortality, but mortality strikes dread into humans and causes all kinds of crazy behaviour in us. That is something we each have to deal with, but in a way we cannot be manipulated by it. Like religion; when you die you are either punished or rewarded, depending on if you do what I say or not :p

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Ray Butler (1,423)M (@trek79) 7 years, 8 months ago ago

So basically what I mean is the awareness of mortality humans have is not natural, nothing else we know of has it, it is a distinctly new thing to evolution. Jumping out of the way of a car is more old school natural instinct but deciding to murder someone for inheritance, that is not natural :)

But that is not necessarily bad; we plan things because of our awareness of time and mortality, there is a whole bunch of trucks delivering food right now, that may not be eaten for a day or more, because we anticipate that people will need to eat. Not many animals do that, stockpile food, and the ones that do it is because they evolved that trait, not because they are anticipating the need.

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LSDismyGOD (63) (@LSDlover) 7 years, 8 months ago ago

i disagree Dear, awareness of mortality humans have is natural, its biological, that awareness leads to self preservation , to protect oneself & closed on from death, & illness , its nt new to evolution , it is the basic stuff of our past ancenstors , due to which we are here right now….. jumping out of the way of a car is perfectly natural when u are gonna save someone , by sacrificing your own life or u are comitting suicide because your girl friend had dumped u, in my story innocent animal done it because of the pain of death of a loved one ,………. deciding to murder someone for inheritance is also natural , i mean it is result of human greed, and desire for power , money, there are animal counterparts to it also like a Lion , chimpanzees destroying other groups, killing males of other lions, to get a control on there resources, females & Tribe , & u can call it property lolz, i also believe there is nothing unnatural in nature & Universe, all things have origin in nature ;)))

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Ray Butler (1,423)M (@trek79) 7 years, 8 months ago ago

For sure, in the sense it is a product of evolution, complex conceptual understandings are natural, I’m just saying because it is such a new and unique variable it will have consequences as well as advantages, and it will take time for humans to adapt to that. Like I’m sure when flying was new to birds they crashed a lot.

Fears, desires and acquired knowledge will all have affects on human behaviour, I’d say keeping them in perspective and using them appropriately is something we need to learn, as individuals and as a species, being a powerless subject to them has no real evolutionary edge, and in evolution unnatural is anything that doesn’t survive.

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LSDismyGOD (63) (@LSDlover) 7 years, 8 months ago ago

again brother, in animal world there are counter parts, a female monkey collecting food inside his chin, and later on giving it to her loved ones, wolves do prepare themselves psychologically for next hunt another day, or after an hour ,and how they gonna feed there kids , animals also do plan things, nt like us, but its there… we are nt much qualified to make much statement about what they plan or nt, there exact emotional states too….a ground of chimpanzee attacks another tribe and killed a young chimpanzee and mate with there females, we cannot say they did,t plan it at all, by there brain, planning is there………..have u seen a Lion , chasing his prey, look at this eyes, look at the way he moves, Total Planning….

we don,t know them exactly, but we can exact counterparts in animals of Human behavior , anyways we all belong to same tree..related brother :)

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LSDismyGOD (63) (@LSDlover) 7 years, 8 months ago ago

fear & perceived danger trigger fight & flight response,its a reflex which is evolved for self preservation, fear is there so one can protect oneself from Death& harm…evolution had resulted in the reflex because it leads to there protection…. one cannot said they are not really afraid of Death, may be they don,t understand Death in english words as we did, but the do have awareness about what Death is really all about, they had seen there loved one passed away, they mourn at it , since we cannot know there mind, its so subjective , we cannot make any clear statement that animals have no understanding or need to understand mortality, u cannot know what goes inside there minds in any way :) My friend Great Dane commited Suicide by jumping off the high roof, after his care taker passed away ,his female partner died by leaving food, passed away before Hindu death rituals of female care taker was over , and i nor anyone else is qualified to make any clear cut statement about there state of Mind, there understanding of Death ,for one thing i am sure they do understand that there loved one had passed away and had died , just like us :)

:))))))

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Ray Butler (1,423)M (@trek79) 7 years, 8 months ago ago

True, we cannot really presume what level of awareness animals can comprehend, I don’t think it is a clear line; some people are obviously aware of things that others are not, so animals may have a certain propensity to understand certain situations.

But complex concepts evade them, obviously complex concepts evade a lot of humans also, and yes I think when they see their kind die in a certain situation they will remember to avoid that situation. Looking at things like the others are no longer around and cannot interact, for sure they miss others, the entire routine has to change and adapt, they would certainly be aware of that, but is death final or does it continue in some form beyond? I don’t think they contemplate that.

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LSDismyGOD (63) (@LSDlover) 7 years, 8 months ago ago

Yes Dear, but what do u understand by word complexity ? i mean they for sure don,t understand Human history or current affairs, but they could understand complex stuff of which we cannot be aware in any way, there are complex concepts which they understand , and we don,t , again they must nt understand the word concept as we did, but they must have concept and a picture of mountains, tree, river, food, friend, foe, enemy in there own language, since we cannot know there thoughts, what they think, we cannot say they don,t understand anything complex……… yes it is the way learning occurs, if i see u falling from somewhere, i will likely avoid that place, same with animals, but certain fear responses are natural, and do nt need any prior learning .

” but is death final or does it continue in some form beyond? I don’t think they contemplate that ”
against we cannot say anything based on our knowledge of there minds , there thoughts , there smile, there pain, there pleasure ;) neither for , nor again, we need to suspend judgement in this regard.

we cannot say how a dog feel when he looks at sun or Milky way galaxy

:)))

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Ray Butler (1,423)M (@trek79) 7 years, 8 months ago ago

All of this is done by simple observations of animals, I don’t do that personally but there are people who have done this for a long time, there are tests they do to determine what animals understand and can form an understanding on, apart from a natural connection to the universe, which I’m sure we all have and exists as some kind of profound understanding on its own, conceptual reason is a factor of evolved brains and animals are generally limited with that ability.

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LSDismyGOD (63) (@LSDlover) 7 years, 8 months ago ago

u are right bro, but those observations are also limited , i mean when we humans cannot understand other humans, completely, how we can make much about animals states of mind, there thoughts, yes we can say a lot about there behavior like Chimpanzee never give response to a finger pointing towards a object, but dog doo……….but what its like to be a Dog, how they actually feel something , there thoughts, the way they experience subjective reality, and consciousness we can never know…..again its true Conceptual reason is a factor of evolved brains, but animals brain are also nt less evolved than us, and what a concept,& complexity means to them can be all together a different thing, and we are dumb in certain aspects in front of them ,in understanding certain complex things, which animals can do very well :)))) thing about shark know about blood from miles away, and dog understanding very well your emotional states , u are sad or happy, for that u need complex reason &we are also limited in our abilities :))))

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Ray Butler (1,423)M (@trek79) 7 years, 8 months ago ago

Emotion is much older than thought, evolution is based on awareness, which all life have, but self-awareness is based on emotion, an evolutionary step. I’m pretty sure sharks don’t experience emotion but dogs certainly do, what dogs know about emotion is probably very developed.

In humans thinking undermines emotion, so we can become less empathetic because of it, but the reason dogs are so capable of being in touch with how we feel is because they are very emotional beings but they do not have too much thoughts to distract them from it.

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LSDismyGOD (63) (@LSDlover) 7 years, 8 months ago ago

Evolution is nt just based on awareness many other factors run it, since our past ancenstors also got brain, nerves, they do have a subjective experience of consciousness and have thoughts, they must be nt just like us, as advanced as us, but they are there , emotion and thought both were there from begining. since we cannot experience there subjective consciousness , we cannot said those past species , only got emotions, but no thought in any form, we cannot know there state of mind completely i repeated so many times. new research shows fish like sharks do feel emotions,basic one.but we are always ignorant about what they actually experience..

Man again, u don,t knowledge about thought a dog, there mental states,thought process, what he actually think, the way dog dream and what he saw in his Dreams, there emotions have nt just there, they are generated or Distracted by present enviornmental stiumli, via brain. so my dog sleeping and suddenly , without anything there , he jump on my bed, and start to say something, than he sometimes come randomly in my room and sit, and start to ask for something, there are thought or mental states which do distract him from current emotional state, again we don,t know much about there exact emotional state, and though processes ,so what actually distract a dog, and what does not, u never knows and can possible never know, coz consciousness is so subjective…i can never have access to ray butler consciousness , and nor he can..even being member of same species, so with Dog ????? a tough one, but i love dogs, and try to see many things in there eyes :)))

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Ray Butler (1,423)M (@trek79) 7 years, 8 months ago ago

So dogs can become highly tuned to emotion and can learn how to express that emotion in a genius kind of way, but emotional intelligence is a different story. People can be genius with thoughts but fools with emotion, and the other way around also, and the two can corrupt each other.

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LSDismyGOD (63) (@LSDlover) 7 years, 8 months ago ago

well let me tell u , my Dog is emotionally intelligent, he knows what will make me angry, what will make me happy, when i am gonna disturb, when i am free, again u have ignorance of what emotional intelligence animals have access too….. There cannot be thoughts without Emotions, reason without emotions, many times emotion empower, reason, many times we made to believe that Reason is controlling emotion, but in that aspect also, emotion is playing an important role, NO REASON WITHOUT EMOTION” Reason is slave of passion ” Hume , People can be genius with thoughts but those thoughts occupy emotions, they are nt blank…. fool with emotion ? i mean we all experience negative emotions in our life, it does,t mean we are fool with emotion, we experience both positive and negative emotions, that is very part of being human, we do mistakes, learn from them, move them, nt likely to repeat them as it is stored in emotional memories, actually TWO are essential part of each other, one is nt there without other, they cannot corrupt each other, they are just there and two sides of a same coin..:))))

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Ray Butler (1,423)M (@trek79) 7 years, 8 months ago ago

The way you say it is that thoughts evolve from emotion, not two sides of the same coin, emotion sources thought.

I agree with that, but talking about being a fool with emotion, emotion is more primal, thoughts are relatively new, thoughts are supposed to be a product of emotion but thoughts can confuse emotion.

Emotion has a source at awareness itself, but awareness can be confused by emotion. All 3, awareness, emotion and thought, can confuse each other, it depends on keeping them in perspective and knowing their place.

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LSDismyGOD (63) (@LSDlover) 7 years, 8 months ago ago

Thoughts evolve from emotions many times, for example , i am angry at u, and i am generating different thoughts about how to hurt u, or how to take revenge, and vice versa to, many times we have Thought, and than emotion is generated by it, like one will reply by anger to a joke, another with awesome sense of humour , i mean that when i said they are two sides of a same coin, so those primal emotions still holds our thought process, i mean there can,t be a reason, planning , completely blank from emotion, thoughts can,t confuse emotions, both are part of each others , When i see a beautiful sun rise, i will generate a thought ” wow what a beautiful sun rise,and there will be emotion with it ” All 3 aweareness ,emotion, thought are integral part of each other, an awareness can be completely get rid of emotion , place of all 3 is there in our Brain and consciousness …

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Ray Butler (1,423)M (@trek79) 7 years, 8 months ago ago

It is like we have our base in awareness but when we find a new ability, emotion, it becomes our new base until the next ability, thought becomes the new base.

We could do it that way, or we could choose to stay at awareness or emotion as our base. So we have 3 choices to base ourselves on, 3 variables, and some people bounce around between 2 or all 3.

But I don’t think it matters which one we base ourselves on, just that when we choose it we are consistent with it, use the other 2 but not be confused by them.

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LSDismyGOD (63) (@LSDlover) 7 years, 8 months ago ago

to be short, emotion ,awareness, thought, run together, we cannot have a single base , at a single time, all 3 are related and are mixed in our experience of subjective consciousness.

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Ray Butler (1,423)M (@trek79) 7 years, 8 months ago ago

That depends on how aware you are of them, how you feel about them and what you know about them ;)

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LSDismyGOD (63) (@LSDlover) 7 years, 8 months ago ago

That Depends on nothing,what u are talking about……about what ? emotions, awareness, thoughts…..aware of what ? emotion , but is that experience of emotion is not part of awareness ???? Aware of thought , how u feel about that ? does the experience of thought is not occuring in awareness ??? can u bring a awareness , which does not got any thought or emotions, ???? what u are thinking as THought just as a base,it is occuring in awarness, and is occupy by feelings of peace, i mean those Mystical states also got element of emotions, thoughts and awareness, the experience of unitary consciousness also got elements of Bliss, what we call in vedanta ” SAT,CHITA,ANANDA” “TRUTH,CONSCIOUSNESS,BLISS” the Mystical achieve Unitary cosnciousness, where awareness is just the bass , of consciousness, but it is not, there is emotion of Supreme bliss with it, and knowledge after it wit thoughts…all these three things are mingled together in our consciousness…………………….& well i know a lot about my emotional states, my thoughts, & my awareness, and u don,t know a fraction of my Inner Universe :)))) Truth is simple , only a fool makes it complicated ,Xd :)))

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Ray Butler (1,423)M (@trek79) 7 years, 8 months ago ago

Actually an amoeba responds to stimuli, which tells us it is aware, but an amoeba does not experience emotion or thought. So yes, awareness can exist absent of emotion and thought, but emotion cannot exist absent of awareness and thought cannot exist absent of emotion.

They are stages, the evolution of awareness. An amoeba exists exclusively in a state of awareness, technically without having emotion or thought to detract from that focus, it is a master of awareness, more so than us, but it cannot love or be afraid, it cannot invent electricity or a spots car.

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Ray Butler (1,423)M (@trek79) 7 years, 8 months ago ago

I would prefer to exist as the amoeba does, a master of awareness, but from that vantage point I can access emotion and thought, but they serve my awareness as tools to augment the things I am aware of, not over-ride them.

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LSDismyGOD (63) (@LSDlover) 7 years, 8 months ago ago

emotions, thoughts are part of awareness, as Tyre,glasses are part of a car, either postive,or negative ride or run in our awareness ,well i was talking about humans, in humans our emotions,thoughts ,are
in fact essential part of our subjective awareness..without emotions our awareness will be like vegetables, ..u are not amoeba, and amoeba is not u, u do not exactly understand subjective awareness and consciousness of amoeba nor amoeba understand yours..scientists only know they have very latent awarness …please be simple , Good night.

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Ray Butler (1,423)M (@trek79) 7 years, 8 months ago ago

“emotion, thoughts are part of awareness” In humans, yes, our awareness is the basis that emotion springs from, and thoughts spring from emotion, in that order. Thought is higher evolution of awareness, so at its core thoughts are awareness.

Personally I think awareness is an evolution of consciousness, most people believe consciousness is the product of our brains. That is the thing about consciousness, we do not know what it really is, so we cannot objectively factor it into an understanding of the stages of awareness.

That is why in my original post for this thread I said consciousness can re-emerge into awareness, that is a theoretical belief but it suggests that consciousness is immutable but awareness is finite.

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LSDismyGOD (63) (@LSDlover) 7 years, 8 months ago ago

what have consciousness, have awareness too, fish,shark, birds, insects, put any animal or species, the degree of awareness depends from animal to animal, a Dog, chimpanzee is for sure more self aware than a lizard or fishes , i believe awareness and consciousness are same stuff, i mean there are animals that have self awareness , about its environment, loved one and sense of self.
consciousness is immutable but awareness is finite, awesome theoretical fairy tale.

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LSDismyGOD (63) (@LSDlover) 7 years, 8 months ago ago

i reply to your thoughts of Human base of emotion,thoughts and awareness and current base, i was talking about human consciousness,human thought,emotions,& awareness and how they cannot be seperated and are mixed together in our subjective experience of consciousness….. not amoeba…neither u was…

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Ray Butler (1,423)M (@trek79) 7 years, 8 months ago ago

“they cannot be separated” true in a way, but what you can do is figure out where each of them begin, identify them for what they are, associate responses in their corresponding categories that define them.

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Ray Butler (1,423)M (@trek79) 7 years, 8 months ago ago

There is a difference between an observation and an emotion that observation provokes, there is a difference between the thoughts that arise from the emotional response and the emotion itself.

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LSDismyGOD (63) (@LSDlover) 7 years, 8 months ago ago

i see no difference brother, observation results into a emotion, it can be good, bad , or OK OK kind of feelings, i do not deny the difference, i said earlier Thought give rise to emotions, random thoughts many times from no where can also do, or a beautiful memory, i see the same joke as funny, other can perceive it as offence, and Primary emotion of anger, love, give rise to different thoughts, they both are related to each other, one cannot be seperated from other.like ying& yang..emotion & thought :))) its 4am in new delhi and i am nt able to sleep,will try again, bye dude.

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LSDismyGOD (63) (@LSDlover) 7 years, 8 months ago ago

for sure ,thats the job Psychologists and scientists do and we can also do very well if we desire :))) as i just was saying they cannot be in different base one by one ,as u was saying earlier, A,B,C they are mixed together in our subjective experience of consciousness.

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Ray Butler (1,423)M (@trek79) 7 years, 8 months ago ago

Consciousness is a pseudo word, we cannot use it objectively, we can call a rock conscious and would not be wrong.

A shark obviously has awareness but from what I know they have little or no emotion to speak of, so they have not conclusively attained the singularity awareness of emotion.

I know what you are saying, technically there shouldn’t be a measure that separates a man from his environment, he is just an extension of it, but you can. The same is true of where an observation transforms into an emotion, if it wasn’t then nothing could exist without emotion, but a shark does, an amoeba does, so you can find the point where one becomes another.

I also understand that in each person we are different, so these points will not be consistently defined across all of humanity, but would be subjectively defined personally, fair enough, it’s a start :)

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LSDismyGOD (63) (@LSDlover) 7 years, 8 months ago ago

hey brother , Consciousness is not a Pseudo word, Neuro scientists define it very well, Although there are many debates regarding consciousness, Consciousness is the quality or state of being aware of an external object or something within oneself.[1][2] It has been defined as: sentience, awareness, subjectivity, the ability to experience or to feel, wakefulness, having a sense of selfhood, and the executive control system of the mind.

in that way Rock got no consciousness ,its just matter with no mind in it….

your next two paras – see i was talking about humans right, and there experience of awareness, thought, & emotion, i was nt talking about sharks & amoeba .in humans an observation can,t be without emotion or reaction in brain.

yes bro, many points are subjective,& are matter of opinion, but many stuff & facts about us&mother nature , are Universal.

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Ray Butler (1,423)M (@trek79) 7 years, 8 months ago ago

So I will say, in the Nihilist sense, that the ability of conceptual reason is natural, but the products of using that ability in themselves have no inherent value, they are unnatural.

There are natural values and I believe animals understand these on a profound level, but I try not to confuse an understanding of natural values with artificial values formed by conceptual reason.

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LSDismyGOD (63) (@LSDlover) 7 years, 8 months ago ago

I will be short & Precise, there is nothing Unnatural in the Universe.. i mean how u put certain aspects of living being in natural and certain unnatural…all animals understand the universe as they perceive there reality, again ,making of difference between natural values, & unnatural values does nt hold a ground..there are complex reason which animal found by social intreactions,think about a dog, who never went out of his room, and about a pet who meet different people, make a difference between friend ,enemies, who is at the door, how to beahave and when, its all complex.. think about it ..all is Natural :)

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Bono (18) (@bono95zg) 7 years, 8 months ago ago

faith in humanity restored haha

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Ray Butler (1,423)M (@trek79) 7 years, 8 months ago ago

Natural yes, but there is a difference between form and substance, that is natural also but it makes a huge difference with tangible application. Thoughts are form, actions are substance, emotions are form, reactions are substance, a Table is form, a table is substance.

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LSDismyGOD (63) (@LSDlover) 7 years, 8 months ago ago

i love simplicity, form, substance, thoughts,actions,emotions,reactions,hatred,love, whatever u call , all are part of Nature & Universe ,hence natural :)))

Thoughts are form, actions are substance, emotions are form, reactions are substance, a Table is form, a table is substance.

LOLZ :))))) XD

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Ray Butler (1,423)M (@trek79) 7 years, 8 months ago ago

Some examples that natural and unnatural can be used; material and non-material, manmade and non-manmade, perpetual and finite. In an absolute sense all these are natural, but there is a difference between them.

Light is considered to give form while sound gives substance, obviously light has natural sources and is a natural phenomena, but it only gives form, we do not interact with the form, when we touch something we touch the substance.

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LSDismyGOD (63) (@LSDlover) 7 years, 8 months ago ago

material and non material difference is there, chair is material, a table is not, but both are natural or have natural origin…there is nothing like not natural, as u used this word often in your answers..NON natural behaviour, natural behaviour kind off..

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Ray Butler (1,423)M (@trek79) 7 years, 8 months ago ago

I think it was Plato who said “An idea has no power to create the corresponding concrete block” it doesn’t mean that ideas do not exist, just they have no substance, only form. The definition of natural you are using is in an absolute sense, if anything is absolute then the definition becomes redundant.

Words like consciousness, God and love are pretty abstract, true objectivity is unattainable, so technically it is redundant as a word, but you can redefine it, or use sub-definitions of it, that make it attainable and therefore relevant.

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LSDismyGOD (63) (@LSDlover) 7 years, 8 months ago ago

Man please don,t bring Plato here, u live in a different age, although some ideas of Plato make sense, but some are rejected all together by Philosophers.

the so called Idea have source in something real out there in Universe. there are abstract ideas too, but they also got some source, there is nothing like in Plato world Ideas , and in our world forms…Aristotle rejected it, and so we do :)))

Words like consciousness, God, love, are generated by us through Human language, based on our emotions, and our experience, if the feeling is OOOUCH i will said pain, if it is orgasm, i will say WOW, Heaven.

well its not an idea , which i am talking about which can be absolute or subjective, its nature, universe , which is just out there, got to do nothing with us, moon is there, weather u look at it or not..
NATURAL in the sense whatever our Universe contain ,is part of it, and to use the word not natural is kind of Redundant, it means it is not part of Universe , and it is in every sense is…

u can use any other word for Natural , perfectly fine, the word natural is product of our language, but the sun, moon , stars, are out there, weather u call it anything or not..

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Ray Butler (1,423)M (@trek79) 7 years, 8 months ago ago

I don’t think Plato was wrong about ideas, and there is a correlation between ideas and form. Ideas can generate a course of action, plan, but it is functional abilities that carry it out, coordination and force combined, that is not the idea manifesting, the idea stays where it is.

I know what you are saying, I agree everything that exists, by form or substance, is contained within reality, the universe, part of it, hence natural in the absolute sense.

An example I am taking about is; the universe, the stars, sun and moon are there if we look at them or not, but when we look at them, each person sees them in their minds eye, not as they naturally are but as their mind interprets them.

A scientist will look at the moon in a different context to how a religious person will, the moon doesn’t care for either of their perspectives, it just continues being. The moon is objective, the scientist and the religious person are subjectively observing that objectivity, but I’d say from each of their perspective they are viewing it as objectively as the moon is viewing them.

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LSDismyGOD (63) (@LSDlover) 7 years, 8 months ago ago

Plato was wrong about Ideas,rejected by Aristotle, contemporary Philosophers & Scientists , when he said they are out there,, and we are copies of it…
there is no form without idea, and no idea without form.
every Idea got some base in something real out there, even abstract ideas got there base in human emotions and imagination. The Idea is manifesting in course of action man, without Idea or thought, course of action cannot take place, but There cannot be something like pure Idea or only Idea, without a form, i mean every idea have source of something real.

i Agree over other Points of Reality ,Universe and subjective perception,many things we can know about them as are really out there, from supernova explosions to birth of a new stars , but not completely, human knowledge is still evolving, but want to add scientists are touching certain aspects of it, religious man cetain,they are right but partially, well scientists man are touching objective facts about moon,but is also fill be awe and wonder, just like a religious man and religious man consider them as Gods and other stuff, adding emotive aspects, i am sure u are well aware of Jain theory of sayadava, and story of 5 blind man touching a elephant, :))) moon is nt viewing them , Xd :))))

its 1 am in India, and i am going to sleep, Good night :)

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Ray Butler (1,423)M (@trek79) 7 years, 8 months ago ago

Yes, what I mean about the moon viewing them is exactly that, it isn’t, just like they aren’t really viewing the moon, they are processing information they are perceiving and translation it in their brains. The difference is the moon doesn’t have a brain that is translating information.

Yes, the scientist is studying observable facts, and so would consider his perspective to be more objective than the religious person, but I’d presume the religious person would consider his observation in his spiritual context to be more objective than the scientist.

And yes, I agree that ideas form from experiences, or from existing ideas that formed from experiences, or combinations of both. Form exists without ideas but ideas don’t exist without form.

It is the tree falling in the woods rhetoric, do things exist without something to perceive them or do they exist despite that? That is a very rhetorical philosophical question, just because we may collectively agree on it, I don’t think it is conclusively proven, such likely isn’t even possible so it really just becomes irrelevant potential, like proving the existence of God, I’d say we would have to continue in this state either way, or by not forming a belief on it at all.

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LSDismyGOD (63) (@LSDlover) 7 years, 8 months ago ago

agreed over your para, 1,2,3

Things exist without something to perceive them, suppose all life on planet will vanish today, due to a comet collision, not a single life forms, still the Material Universe, galaxies, black holes,suns, will do exist, there is no Eyes to see them, but they will exist, these entities don,t give a fuck about weather someone is perceiving them or not, they are there out there, Blind forces of Nature. nt much Philosophical debate now…its Plain common sense..

Thanks Mr Ray Butler.

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LSDismyGOD (63) (@LSDlover) 7 years, 8 months ago ago

i never said plato said that idea do not exist, i was saying he is wrong when he said that Idea is some real entity out there without world, or forms…i am not using any defination of natural, all things that are contained within universe, come under natural, there is no law of logic or law of thought, which says that if anything is used in absolute sense than the defination is redundant.. ..

words like consciousness, God, Love are not abstract, formations of these words, are based on human emotions, brain, human experiences , thus they are real as sun & moon..when my dog express love towards me, he make different noises, and those noises are nt abstract…they are expression of his emotions..

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Immortality (456) (@jjj333) 7 years, 8 months ago ago

Your consciousness absolutely still exists. You just don’t have thoughts or human labels or anything to do with a brain. That consciousness is still present and aware. The universe is one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively through each and every thing that exists. I’m aware that I am aware that I’m thinking. Humans are the only being that have lost their touch with reality. We label and judge and name and put a word to everything. We have forgotten how to just BE. When you die, your “soul” rejoins the collective..you go “home”..”source”.. whatever.. The thing is, that home or heaven or source, whatever you want to call it is actually a feeling. Heaven is a feeling.. In the 17th chapter of st luke it says that The kingdom of god is within man..not one man, not a group of men, but in all men, in you… heaven or god or whatever label you want to put on it is just a state of consciousness.. when you reach that state, you realize that nothing else matters.. there is no death.. you’re not your thoughts or the stories you’ve made up for yourself.. you are consciousness.. You are the consciousness in which your body could even exist.. I suggest meditation brother.. it’s a fuckin trip.

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Bono (18) (@bono95zg) 7 years, 8 months ago ago

i agree there wont be conciosness but i still fear death. life is a curse lol.

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LSDismyGOD (63) (@LSDlover) 7 years, 8 months ago ago

(@Bono95zg)
life appear a curse many times, but a blessing many times, depends on our emotional states Xd :)))
LOLZ same here bro , thats why i love Hashish, Lsd , shrooms, Ketamine , Ecstasy ,they make life blissful :) Xd

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Bono (18) (@bono95zg) 7 years, 8 months ago ago

i only tried lsd once :( its hard to get here where i live.
i generally think life is a curse but im trying to forget that and find beauty in life :D

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Jinay Shah (4) (@Jinay-Shah) 7 years, 8 months ago ago

everyone’s conciousness is hungry for new experiences..that’s why you still want to live and not completely accept those words…

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Ray Butler (1,423)M (@trek79) 7 years, 8 months ago ago

Running out of new experiences, which is probably impossible but it depends on how limited your interaction potential is, or losing the very interest for discovery of new experiences, this would actually make death neither appealing or unappealing.

I’d say the conceptual attachments to values we form is artificial with no inherent value, wanting to live or die is not a practical way to look at life, but living because you can and accepting the experiences it provides is.

Preference of our greatest desire over our greatest fear is a connotation rooted in illusion designed by experience and acquired knowledge themselves and so sustain their own existence and empowering them over us, in appreciation of that fact I would expect conditioned attachments to be neutralised.

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